I wanted to make this its own thread so it didn't get lost in the other one.

To subscribe to the BAEUG mailing list (for San Francisco Bay Area Empeg Users), send mail to majordomo@megacity.org, in the body, put "subscribe baeug".

Rob -- if you can either send me that list of Bay Area users, or spam them yourself with the above information, that would be spiffy. (It's probably better if you spam them yourself, less privacy issues will get raised that way)

D

(It's probably better if you spam them yourself, less privacy issues will get raised that way)

You're right, I hadn't thought of that! Rob's probably proud of the fact that they don't sell their mailing list to spammers, and here we are asking him to cough up a spam list so we can spam somebody.

And for afters, I'll have the spam spam spam spam spam spam baked beans spam spam and spam.

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Tony Fabris

This is great. I got a bounce when I tried to sign up for the mailing list.

I'm not sure which server generated the error (mine or megacity's), but the error (which I don't fully understand) is that one of the servers (mine, I think), has been identified by a piece of anti-spam security software called Orbs (which I think is running on megacity's majordomo machine) as having something called an "open relay", and therefore "does not like recipient". More info is available at the orbs site listed above.

So as much as I want to, I can't join this mailing list.

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Tony Fabris

I'm not sure which server generated the error (mine or megacity's), but the error (which I don't fully understand) is that one of the servers (mine, I think), has been identified by a piece of anti-spam security software called Orbs (which I think is running on megacity's majordomo machine) as having something called an "open relay", and therefore "does not like recipient".

"Open relay" refers to a machine on the internet that can be used to forward email without any authentication. Spammers often use them to cover their tracks. Orbs actively probes servers for this misfeature and publishes the results. Individual site operators can then use this list to do their own spam filtering.

It's a good idea except it's usually the end users that suffer if their system administrator hasn't configured their mail server properly. So you should complain to your system administrator or ISP.

Borislav

having something called an "open relay",

Tony, most email servers (in the old days - i.e. sendmail) would allow anyone to connect from anywhere, and submit email for anywhere - not just locally.

These are "open relays". This is bad - it allows spamming on a grand scale, since the originating source of the email can't be easily tracked.

Most mail servers (including sendmail in the default configuration now, I think) are "closed relays". They'll only accept email destined for their own domain, or, if they're smarthosting, from their own domain.

This makes spam harder to create, and easier to track.

This message usually means that your email provider is running an "open relay", and therefore, can't be trusted. You'll need to have a chat with your email provider to get them to stop.

Like it says, more information is available on the Orbs site.



Roger - not necessarily speaking for empeg

And I do want to clarify that I'm NOT using the "complete" ORBS list, but only the verified open relays.

ORBS also has a mode where it can reject mail from servers that it was unable to test (from the principle of "if you're blocking ORBS from testing you, then you've got something to hide and are not to be trusted").

Currently, I am NOT using that, but only "real verified open relays".

D

Unfortunately the ORBS verified open relays include some of the world's largest ISP's. In the UK this includes Demon and Psinet, therefore several hundred thousand personal and business net users are unable to communicate with anyone that blocks using the ORBS database.

Empeg use Psinet, but we run our own mailserver as the smarthost is blocked resulting in some very infuriated clients (until we worked out what was going on).

The intentions of ORBS are good, but the upshot is that if you block with it you'll lose contact with many genuine net users and still receive spam from many companies that don't rely upon open relays.

On a personal level, I also feel that ORBS is very contrary to the original ethics of the internet. I guess those ethics just aren't workable any more.

Rob

To answer some of your points:

1.) The "size" of a company is irrelevant. If a relay is "rape-able", then whether the ISP has 400 customer or 4,000,000 customers, the mail server in question still is abuseable. Also, it should be noted, that even companies with millions of users manage to secure their mail servers. Yahoo, for example, has SMTP servers that can be used by Yahoo!Mail customers, which can literally be accessing from anywhere in the world, but those mail servers are still secured against open relaying. Any ISP who claims that the issue is "too big for them to deal with" is deluding themselves and doing their customers a disservice.

2.) I can honestly say that using ORBS on my mail server yields FAR more "spam-kills" than it will ever dream of achieving in "false-positives". I probably average about 1 or 2 pieces of spam per week. PER WEEK. I know people averaging ten times that per DAY. ORBS, combined with something like the MAPS DUL (Dial-Up List), which prevents a dial-up account from connecting directly, has nearly removed my spam load. While admittedly, there ARE going to be "innocent" e-mails blocked, this is a good thing, because then those users will either (a) leave their current provider so their mail isn't blocked, or (b) convince their ISP to secure their server against relay-raping.

3.) On the "original ethics" issue... Eric Allmann made sendmail "relay by default" in the early days because there, frankly, weren't that many SMTP servers around. You couldn't guarantee that your point-of-access (school, business, etc.) was going to provide one, and so people ran public SMTP servers as public-services. Even Eric has admitted that in today's society that won't work. Unfortunately, today, people have abused the good-will of others and the good-will is no longer available. Is it sad? Yes. Is it a fact of life, though? Yes.

Now, honestly, I don't know if we want to get into the whole "ORBS is good!"/"ORBS is bad!" debate, but the reality is that its an issue that isn't going to get solved here in this forum.

D

I don't want to debate ORBS in general (I had more than enough patronising self righteous email from them last year), but the point I intended to make is that it's probably not the best idea to run an ORBS filter on a mailing list if you want it to be accessible by everyone.

Rob

I dunno... I'm running three other mailing lists on the same server and haven't received any complaints whatsoever (mild annoyance from some, yes, but when what ORBS does, how it works, etc. is explained they usually go "ahhhhh...." and then beat their ISP/employer up for being spam-friendly.

D

I could say something cynical about how, by definition, you CAN'T receive complaints from affected individuals

Whatever, I'll send out a mailshot on Monday to Bay Area owners (using the suggested zipcode list from this thread) with details for subscribing to your list. I suggest you give people a few days to join before posting suggestions for the meet.

Rob

but when what ORBS does, how it works, etc. is explained they usually go "ahhhhh...." and then beat their ISP/employer up for being spam-friendly.

Ahhhh. Although there's no way I'm going to be able to beat my ISP into doing anything other than consistently ignoring my support requests.

Is there a way to tell the mailserver to ignore the ORBS recommendation just for my particular e-mail address? Does it have an exception list? I'd like to get on the BAEUG mailing list anyway.

PS: Damn, is that name sticking? BAEUG? Come one, we can come up with a cooler acronym than that, can't we? Something pronounceable? How about BAEL (Bay Area Empeg Lovers)? Or BAMBIE (Bay Area MP3 Believers In Empeg)? Or AMOEBA (Association Made Of Empeggers in the Bay Area)? Okay, so those really suck. But you see the kind of thing I'm going for?

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Tony Fabris

See my e-mail reply (from my non-ORBS-enabled address). We'll work something out one way or another.

D

FYI - we're working (right now) on making it so that list subscriptions/submissions don't get checked via RBL's. (figuring that the filters on majordomo will prevent spam itself from coming through).

Just implemented the "official" config options for doing this that I got from the sendmail folks, but I'm waiting for tfabris to get back to his 'puter to try it out.

D

Dredd, although I was finally able to sign up for the BAEUG list after your ORBS tweaks, I now cannot send normal replies to the list and get the same ORBS bounce. I would have sent this message to your non-orbs-enabled address, but I've lost it.

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Tony Fabris

I subscribed to the list but I haven't received any traffic at all, not even a subscription confirmation.

Rob

COMPLETELY my fault...

I'd exempted "maeug@" instead of "baeug@"...

No idea how or why I did that, but you should be ok now.

D

I subscribed to the list but I haven't received any traffic at all, not even a subscription confirmation.

When I subscribed, I got a nearly instantaneous confirmation. So you probably need to try again since he's done the fixes to the mailing list.

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Tony Fabris

Rob,

You should get a subscription confirmation almost immediately. (It's majordomo, so its going to send you a token to send back to confirm your subscription).

I don't see you in the subscriber list, so it looks like the message never got here (or the confirmation never got to you, one of the two). I'd say give it another go.

D