Hi,

Last week I was in a bicycle accident. I was cycling in the proper direction of traffic flow, down the outside of one lane of slow moving traffic and one lane of parked cars. One of the cars parked illegally on yellow lines attempted a u-turn. One of the cars infront of me flashed his lights to let the turning car out. The car proceeded to turn across my path and make the u-turn without checking whether anything else was approaching from his right. I crashed squarely into his drivers door, smashing his window and denting the door, and quite seriously bending my bike.

He is claiming that it is my fault, claiming that he wasn't able to see me and that I was travelling very fast.

I feel that because I was travelling in the proper direction of traffic for my lane, that it is his duty of care to observe ALL traffic before manoevering. Due to the point of impact on his car, he was clearly half way across the road when I hit him, showing that he proceeded with the turn without checking.

He phoned me the other day stating that if I didn't try and claim for my bike, that he wouldn't try and claim for his car.

Obviously his repair bill is going to be much higher than mine, if I lose.

So.... Who's fault was it?



Oli.

Who's fault was it?

Whoever has the worse lawyer.

Sorry to say it, but it's true.

Tricky one.

Ask yourself...if you had been driving a car, whose fault would it be? Your answer whould be the same. He was in a parked position, and had the responsibility to ensure that it was safe to proceed before doing so. However, you were overtaking traffic at the time. You have a responsibility to ensure that it is safe to do so. This is an interesting issue - I would expect that only the traffic that you are overtaking and the oncoming traffic should play into that decision, and that the fact that he was parked and stationary should be the deciding factor. It is reasonable for anyone in the London area to expect that bicycles and motor-bicycles could be overtaking stationary traffic at a light.

If you were indeed travelling very fast, and he was proceeding with caution, then I would expect the point of impact to be on his front wing.

I have a question...did you have any injuries? I would be surprised if you didn't. See a doctor anyway.

Another way to look at it...Did you get the details of the other car that flashed him out? Did that driver state that he had flashed him?

Firstly, that driver took some responsibility if he did by flashing when it was clearly not safe to proceed. Secondly, if the driver that you hit stated that he moved because of the other car flashing him, then he is basically admitting fault. Flashing your lights or beeping your horn (in the UK) only have _one_ purpose. "To inform another road user of your presence" (paraphrased - check your highway code). They do _not_ have any meaning such as "It is safe to proceed", and if the other driver interpreted it as such and neglected to make his own observations...

But it's a mess. IANAL. I suggest you speak to one though.

Who's fault was it?

Because you where sharing the lane with other traffic (you where not following the cars, but riding along side them) it wouldn't surprise me if it was your fault as you where not really moving with the flow of traffic. You might want to do a little research into the laws for motorcycles in the same scenario (cutting traffic) to see what they have to say. Of course the standard IANAL disclaimer applies and Tony's point about the best lawyer winning is pretty valid as well.

-Mike

In the States, if you were passing cars on the center line (i.e., you were not in the "flow" of traffic as a vehicle), you'd probably be moving illegally yourself, and be somewhat at fault.

Tony's right - the better lawyer wins.

-jk

I don't know if it has come in or not or even if it is coming but there maybe some law coming in from the europian folk that any accident involing a car and a bike legally the car is at fault no matter whos fault it is.

Now the way he is going it sound like he might not be insured so he could be screwed but if he is then not too sure.

it is not who is at fault it is who can prove the other is at fault.

The other factor is the sheer damn inconvience factor of having to trawl through all the paper work and shite involved. So if it is a cheap bike maybe just let it go.

But an expensive bike you were filtering which is semi legal but you were on the right side of the road etc So i would say he is at fault.

Ah re read your post he claimed he could not see you therefore he is saying he didn't see you therefore he is saying he did not look so SMIDSY (sorry mate i didn't see you) is no defence.

I also am not sure of who's guilt it is. I'll run it by my dad (who at least went to law school), but the law is probably different there.

I'm not sure if it's the law here, but I was at least taught that you should never make a U-turn in the middle of a road. Of course, I wouldn't need to be told that because to me, it just seems like a stupid thing to do.

By the way, I hope you weren't injured too much.

I suggest you take the offer of "neither one claims".

If it goes to the insurance folks, you BOTH lose. Simple as that.

-ml

If it goes to the insurance folks, you BOTH lose. Simple as that.

What's the point of havng insurance if one is afraid to claim? (I mean, I agree, I'm just saying it's a sad situation when you think of it that way.)

What's the point of havng insurance if one is afraid to claim?

It's illegal not to have it (hows that for missing the point?). For my own part, I've never had trouble with my insurance company taking care of things quickly and easily (USAA). Not sure about the bicycle question, though.

I can only tell you what the situation would be like in Belgium. Over here, you'd win, because the guy is making a manoever. Doesn't matter if you were overtaking or not. He had to check if it was safe for him to do the U-turn.

He'd have to have a very good lawyer to win this one. Also adding to the fact that you are a so-called "weak road-user" (that's the term we use here for pedestrians and bycycles) is a definite BIG plus for you.

Over here a so called weak road-user can cross a street with his eyes closed, and if he gets hit by a car it's still the car user who is at fault. (except when the behavior of the cyclist can be proven, but how do you do that ?)

I'd definitely claim this one, it's a sure win. Of course, I'm not up to date on UK law...

First off, in a collision between two vehicles, if you ram another vehicle from the rear, you are at fault. You didn't. Since he was pulling out into traffic, the burden of care lies with him.

He (as was pointed out later in this thread) has obviously no knowledge of his highway code. I would suggest you immediately get a copy and brush up yourself.

You were involved in an accident with no third party or third party property, hence it is a straight claim between him and you. However, he has realised if it goes through his insurance company, he'll be in trouble. I vastly doubt you have managed to get witnesses to the event, which would have simplified things immensely.

Since it was an accident, both drivers should have reported the accident to the police within 24 hours. You should also have exchanged details. I would suggest that as well as reporting it, you should ask for advice at the police station. Note that by making his later statements to you, he has in fact threatened you after the fact.

The fact that you hit his door means he has turned out very rapidly, probably without observation.

In all likelihood, if you both agree not to claim, he will still go ahead and make a "my car was dented in the car park" claim on his comprehensive policy, which would be fraudulent, and then criminal if it involved a third party and this was later reported to the insurance company after a payment had been made.

If I were you, I would do the following:

- go to your GP immediately and get an examination
- immediately (or as soon as possible) report the accident in detail at the police station in the area of the accident, to the traffic section
- ask for advice from a traffic officer
- find a solicitor specialising in road traffic accident claims and ask him to write a solicitor's letter on your behalf direct to the driver which will force him to go to his insurance company
- notify his insurance company of the crash in a private letter, making a statement that you will be making a claim for third party damage to your property
- take your bike to a repair shop, and ask for a repair estimate to repair the bike thoroughly
- send a copy of the quote for the repair to the insurance company and ask for payment within 30 days
- after 30 days, go back to solicitor and get a second solicitor's letter sent to the insurer claiming for the 1st letter, the 2nd letter, and your repair costs

I must warn you though - as a bicyclist, you were not supposed to be travelling along the outside of the traffic queue - you should have been between the parked and the mobile traffic lines, so you are partly at fault. He is also partly at fault for making an illegal (you cannot make a U-turn in the face of oncoming traffic - was traffic approaching?) and downright stupid (you should never make a manoeuvre at the indication of other drivers - make your own decisions) U-turn. There is no "fault" here, so any liability will be divided between the participants. All you can do is "bull" it harder than him to see if you can get his insurance company to pay up.

Be sure that your health is in order, though - this is by far the most important. Bikers can suffer subtle head and neck injuries which only come to light many months later.

I didn't try and claim for my bike, that he wouldn't try and claim for his car.

Just read this sentence through carefully. If this is what he said to you, does it make sense? How can he "make a claim" without engaging a solicitor and make an attempt to sue for damages? You can simply write to his insurer and request reparation! BS, this is just bluster and threat. Go for the throat.

Additionally, you can get him in a small claims court summons if you get no-where: if he doesn't turn up, you are awarded in default. Your solicitor can advise you on this.

You're right Rob, although I'm not sure a claim must be made withing 24 hrs. I've put claims on paper MONTHS after the accident happened (always because the two parties tried to settle the dispute between them at first and in the end one of them doesn't keep his promises)

You're right about him being wrong when he was overtaking the cars, but worst case scenario he'll get a fine for that (if anything).

Bikers can suffer subtle head and neck injuries which only come to light many months later.

You're not wrong there..this makes me think about an accident I was called to last year. The initial report by the call-centre was : "head-on collision between two bycycles". By the time we got there both men were dead. They both hit their heads on the sidewalk...

Or an accident I was called to a few months ago. A driver of a just-parked car opened up his car door without checking for bycycles. A lady on a bike that was just passing by swings around the car door, looses her balance and falls onto the ground. She has a small wound to her head, nothing serious it would seem. She is transferred to the hospital by ambulance. We follow the ambulance to the hospital, where I take the lady's statement down.
The end of that, and we continue our shift.
Several hours later when I'm about to end my shift my boss comes up to me and says : "better finish that report quick, that lady just died". It turned out that headwound was much more serious than was thought at first.

So yes, ALWAYS go your GP after you've been into an accident, even if you don't feel anything at first. (especially if you've had a blow to the head!). All the rest is far less important.

you can get him in a small claims court summons if you get no-where: if he doesn't turn up, you are awarded in default.

I sued an old roommate (I call Spanky) for running up a $3700 phone sex bill. Kicked him out and tried repeatedly to get some restitution for the bill in which the Sprint LD company said, "we say the calls came from your house so they did" in their "investigation" into the matter. Seriously, it looked like Spanky got scammed, and it all happened while I was on the road for work. He denied it, but wouldn't produce timecards for me when he claimed he was at work, he did in court though, and the judge suspected forgery... He hid the phone bills for three months until I got Sprint to send them to my work address so I was unawre of the charges on my account.
Well long story short, you can't get money from someone that has none, despite what the court finds and it is considered harrassment when I would remind him of the court finding him responsible for the bill and he needs to pay me. As for ways to force him to pay, no real estate means he has nothing I could place a lein against. I wrote it off on my taxes so every tax paying American has the right to kick his ass now... Oh and I will never EVER use Sprint for any servies again after that whole fiasco... I ended up paying $2900 to a collection agancy, thanks Spanky, you dick!

I wrote it off on my taxes so every tax paying American has the right to kick his ass now...

You can do this? Wow. Guess I'll try to wrap up a wage claim with an old job this year, and if nothing still comes out of it, write it off while doing next years taxes.

You can do this?

I wrote it off as an uncollectable debt but made sure I could prove it by having the judgement and documented attempts (certified mail) to collect until the court informed me I shouldn't do that because he could file harrassment charges. Wonderful system it is at times...
I think you can do $2k or $3k max a year so I had to do it over two years time. Consult your tax accountant, as I am not one...

Man, I always wondered who actually called those phone sex lines.. Now I know someone who knew someone who called them!

I agree, go for the throat. He's only bluffing. There is no way he could have observed traffic in either direction to be sure that the U turn was safe. Do you have to be able to see for 100 metres or so before you can U turn? AND he was doing it from the wrong side of the road, near an intersection.
He'd have a tough time trying to prove that he was driving with due care and attention. You may have been not doing the right thing in entirity, but that should be considered separately to his actions. I'm sure there are about four road rules he has broken here.
The reason you drive defensively is to avoid accidents with people who are doing unexpected things, like you were.

I drink with a specialist road traffic solicitor, in my circle, most saturday nights, so I've printed out your description of the circumstances, to stick in my inside pocket and I hope to post an opinion, sunday or monday.

I've a feeling from his normal line of conversation, that he'll recommend accepting the no-claim on either side scenario. But I've no doubt that you're in the right, in my mind.

Hi,

I did in fact get a witness from the shop that he was parked outside. They confirmed that he was parked illegally and turned from the parked position. The police officer at the scene also pointed out that he was parked illeagally, but wouldn't apportion blame because he wasn't a traffic cop, he was an inspector that was driving by. He said that he hadn't attended an accident in years and the blame was up to solicitors/insurance.

I don't have a solicitior, but there is a company who specialise in bike claims on a 'no win, no fee' basis.

I would rather not involve solicitors and intend to write to his insurers and just claim about £500, the value of my bike and a days loss of earnings. I was not badly injured and have no reason to try and sue him unless he tries it. Is this a wise descision? or should I go for everything?

As a fellow cyclist, I say go for it.

If you go for too much, you will fail in your claim. Claim only for what you are owed, a day's pay, any fees associated with the day (bus tickets!) and the cost of the repairs. Ensure you produce repair estimates.

The second you go for more than you are reasonably entitled to, your letter to the insurance company will go into the "Circular File".

Be reasonable. This isn't the States (yet...)

I would rather not involve solicitors

I wasn't going to involve a solicitor on your behalf, as I'm at the other end of the Country, I was just going to get an expert's opinion.

However, The guys on holiday, so, what with going to the meet, I won't see him for ar least a fortnight, which probably doesn't help.

Sorry.

...on the contrary, thank you very much for showing intrest and help. I was just stating independently of your offer to show the picture to your friend that I would ordinarily not be the type of person to want to involve a solicitor, but was asking advice on whether i should do so or not. I felt that if I only claimed for the bike and a day's earnings, I might not need to.

Regardless, a Solicitor's letter will add weight to your claim and is not something an insurance company will ignore. For the cost (about 40 quid) it's well worth it.