#2036 - 25/03/2000 12:06
Beta 10a released
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addict
Registered: 20/05/1999
Posts: 411
Loc: Cambridge, UK
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http://www2.empeg.com/upgrades/Please read the release notes before installation _and_ before reporting any bugs. -- Mike Crowe I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)
_________________________
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Mike Crowe
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#2037 - 25/03/2000 15:08
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: mac]
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journeyman
Registered: 05/10/1999
Posts: 89
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I really thought long and hard about this to try and keep from looking like a dumbass here. But I'll have to bite.
What "safety reasons"?
Corby
SN#320, 6-Gig Blue
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#2038 - 25/03/2000 19:40
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: mac]
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veteran
Registered: 16/06/1999
Posts: 1222
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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...for safety reasons??? I kinda liked having my favorite visual come up automatically:(
-m
...proud to have one of the first Mark I units
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#2039 - 26/03/2000 04:28
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: dionysus]
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addict
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 483
Loc: Guernsey
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Hmmm, I don't like this at all...
I think I'll be sticking with beta 10 for a while... =(
Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)
_________________________
Jazz
(List 112, Mk2 42 gig #40. Mk1 4 gig #30. Mk3 1.6 16v)
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#2040 - 26/03/2000 06:57
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: mac]
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member
Registered: 05/10/1999
Posts: 126
Loc: Hants, UK.
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for the 4800 baud support. Can this rate be set in config.ini yet?
Regards,
_________________________________________
John, (S/No 0114, 20G).
_________________________
[color:yellow]_________________________________________John, (MK1 #114-20G, MK2 #15-36G).</font color=yellow>
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#2041 - 26/03/2000 09:10
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: Big John]
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addict
Registered: 20/05/1999
Posts: 411
Loc: Cambridge, UK
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Can this rate be set in config.ini yet?
Yes.
[serial]
car_rate=n
HTH
--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)
_________________________
--
Mike Crowe
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#2042 - 26/03/2000 10:01
Question about in-car startup visual (not a bug report)
[Re: mac]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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I think it's fine that you decided to put up the text info on startup, so I'm not reporting this as a bug. But my question is about the full-screen text itself. I asked this question in another thread, but didn't get an answer: Once upon a time, Hugo said that the text screens would eventually shift their position on the screen periodically to prevent screen burn on the VFD. Has this been implemented yet? For the most part, I'd prefer to have that text info on the screen all the time when I'm in the car. I'm just afraid to because of the possibility of screen burn. Tony FabrisEmpeg #144
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#2043 - 26/03/2000 11:08
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: mac]
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member
Registered: 05/10/1999
Posts: 126
Loc: Hants, UK.
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Hi Mike, In reply to:
Can this rate be set in config.ini yet?
Yes.
[serial]
car_rate=n
Tried to write a config.ini in "/empeg/var/", but even using the rw script, that area was still read only. I got this path from the development site, is it correct? i.e. /empeg/var/config.ini ??
Also, the baud rate verbs that you've embedded, are they like 9600, 115200 or 115K?
Regards,
_________________________________________
John, (S/No 0114, 20G).
_________________________
[color:yellow]_________________________________________John, (MK1 #114-20G, MK2 #15-36G).</font color=yellow>
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#2044 - 26/03/2000 11:08
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: Jazzwire]
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enthusiast
Registered: 21/08/1999
Posts: 381
Loc: Northern Ireland
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I'm more likely to crash fiddling with the remote or the menu system to get the visuals on again  Geoff ---- ------- Reg No. 554, s/n 00064 - It's mine I tell you.... all mine :)
_________________________
Geoff
---- -------
Mk1 Blue - was 4GB, now 16GB
Mk2 Red - was 12GB, now 60GB
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#2045 - 26/03/2000 11:40
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: Geoff]
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journeyman
Registered: 05/10/1999
Posts: 89
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I'm more likely to crash fiddling with the remote or the menu system to get the visuals on again
That is so obvious, I can't even imagine that our smart Empeg friends would be using that as a rationale.
I have shown off the unit to visiting neighbors twice since installing beta 10-a. In both cases, I am heading 20mph down our street by the time the bootup sequence has completed, and I want visuals on the screen to show my guest. So I am fiddling around with the four buttons on the console trying to navigate the new menu to turn off information (hint: it takes more than one or two button presses).
Mike hasn't gotten around to explaining what the safety reasons are, but if he was actually referring to driver attention that would be very misguided (and easily reversible in beta 10b).
Corby
SN#320, 6-Gig Blue
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#2046 - 26/03/2000 12:41
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: Big John]
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addict
Registered: 20/05/1999
Posts: 411
Loc: Cambridge, UK
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Tried to write a config.ini in "/empeg/var/", but even using the rw script, that area was still read only. I got this path from the development site, is it
correct? i.e. /empeg/var/config.ini ??
/empeg/var is on the music partition so you need to use rwm and rom.
Also, the baud rate verbs that you've embedded, are they like 9600, 115200 or 115K?
Simple numbers like 115200 and 9600.
--
Mike Crowe
I may not be speaking on behalf of empeg above :-)
_________________________
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Mike Crowe
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#2047 - 26/03/2000 12:56
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: mac]
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member
Registered: 05/10/1999
Posts: 126
Loc: Hants, UK.
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Hi Mike, In reply to:
Tried to write a config.ini in "/empeg/var/", but even using the rw script, that area was still read only. I got this path from the development site, is it
correct? i.e. /empeg/var/config.ini ??
/empeg/var is on the music partition so you need to use rwm and rom.
Also, the baud rate verbs that you've embedded, are they like 9600, 115200 or 115K?
Simple numbers like 115200 and 9600.
On the ball as ever Mike, thanks for the quick reply.
Regards,
_________________________________________
John, (S/No 0114, 20G).
_________________________
[color:yellow]_________________________________________John, (MK1 #114-20G, MK2 #15-36G).</font color=yellow>
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#2048 - 26/03/2000 13:27
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: corby]
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enthusiast
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 345
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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I have to agree with most people on this thread. I'm not happy with the text visual at startup. I would find my self searching for a visual as i'm pulling out of my driveway.
Can we make this an option in emplode, "start up visual = ?"
Here's a suggestion: Have the text info apear at the first 5 seconds of the song, then go into the visual. This would also help the problem with burning a hole in the screen, AND help with the safty because you're not switching text on and off to see what you're listening to.
I know this should be in the "suggestion" area, but i thought it would pertain to this thread:
( 2 suggestions ) - (1) show the datarate of the mp3 on the text screen, have it scroll along with the song title and artist. AND show the current playlist. The current playlist can be displayed as the song title, and artist scrolls, or in a corner of the full scren text info visual. (2) For a visual, have the full screen text info WITH a small moving visual at the top or bottom, like a simple level meter. My Sony MiniDisc has one. The little squares at the bottom of the screen are there to show you record levels, and that music is coming out. It can be a few rows of pixles at the top, or on the side.
-CHiP
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-CHiP
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#2049 - 26/03/2000 13:29
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: corby]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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The boot into text mode whilst in-car "feature" was supposed to have been in the very first release - somehow it got overlooked until now.
Here's the rationale as I understand it.
Animated visuals could be considered distracting. Sooner or later someone may crash their car while looking at empeg visuals instead of the road - common sense would say that this is their own dumb fault, but certain litigious countries don't see it like that (I'm not saying that's right, and I'm not saying that's wrong). By setting the default in-car screen mode to a textual information page, empeg require that their clients make a definite conscious decision to switch to a moving visual, and in doing so bring much of the responsibility for the consequences upon themselves. Of course this is backed up with warnings and disclaimers in the documentation.
Take a look at some other high end car stereos that plot visuals - they boot into a warning screen, which you have to acknowledge before getting any moving graphics.
Switching to a visualisation is a lot less user intensive than, for example, changing a playlist or searching for a track.
Of course I'm not talking officially for empeg, this is my personal perspective on the issue.
Rob
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#2050 - 26/03/2000 15:05
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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The new Pioneer my mate has bought doesn't - it starts showing planets spinning, all sorts. This model is only available in "A large, litigious country" - he has had to import it himself.
Likewise, a JVC with jazzy visuals my colleague at work (also am empeg fan) has just bought starts immediately with images of scrolling roadways and a two channel VU.
Finally, a really expensive Alpine equaliser with a built in display starts showing spectrum as soon as it powers up.
That's just three that I know of. If you're worried about safety, then why not just always put up the static logo graphic at boot?
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners...  #00015
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#2051 - 26/03/2000 15:39
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: schofiel]
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enthusiast
Registered: 21/08/1999
Posts: 381
Loc: Northern Ireland
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I sort of figured this was due to our (unfortunately) increasingly litigious society (the UK is getting just as bad judging by what I've read in the papers lately)
As a suggestion, perhaps after booting up in-car, if one of the buttons is pressed (I'm thinking of the top/pause button) within 30 or 45 seconds or some suitable interval, then the last displayed visual should start. Display a warning message or disclaimer or whatever, because the last thing we want is for Empeg to go under because of some court-happy nutter! Making a conscious decision to display visuals is all very well, but if you have to navigate x levels of menu to get one running, it's just way too awkward IMHO.
Geoff
---- -------
Reg No. 554, s/n 00064 - It's mine I tell you.... all mine :)
_________________________
Geoff
---- -------
Mk1 Blue - was 4GB, now 16GB
Mk2 Red - was 12GB, now 60GB
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#2052 - 26/03/2000 17:59
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: Geoff]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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I don't get this thing about having to navigate tons of menus as a result of the new text mode default.
Unless 10A works very differently to how I expected (I haven't used it yet - took a weekend away from work!) you should just have to press the MD-CD button to switch into graphic mode. I ASSUME it will go to the previously used visual.
Am I missing something?
Rob
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#2053 - 26/03/2000 18:34
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: rob]
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journeyman
Registered: 05/10/1999
Posts: 89
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Am I missing something?
Yes, unfortunately we don't always have our remotes with us in the car. So, when my remote isn't with me, I have to push:
[down] - to bring up menu
[scroll left] - until I reach info menu
[down] - to select info menu
[scroll left] - until I reach "off"
[down] - to turn off text mode
This is seven or eight button presses I have to do, and I have to keep my eyes on the Empeg the whole time, squinting a bit if it's daytime.
If you can find a one-button solution to turning off the text info on startup, then I am perfectly happy with you guys doing whatever you need to do to protect yourself from lawsuits.
Corby
SN#320, 6-Gig Blue
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#2054 - 26/03/2000 20:08
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: corby]
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veteran
Registered: 16/06/1999
Posts: 1222
Loc: San Francisco, CA
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...I can understand the need for text-based visual at the startup, but honestly I think this should be a user option - let the users decide what they want their startup to be, the last mode, or a text-mode visual..
-mark
...proud to have one of the first Mark I units
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#2055 - 26/03/2000 23:10
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: dionysus]
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member
Registered: 30/12/1999
Posts: 143
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I'm not only unhappy/frustrated with the text mode visual on start-up -- I'm downright disgusted with it. I understand the need to be concerned for the owners of the units -- both morally and legally. However, I feel that functionality-limiting Big Brother tactics designed to protect users from themselves are exactly the tactics that "certain litigous socities" employ. Furthermore I feel that it is these kinds of maneuvers that REMOVE freedom (of choice) from the very people who are protected by the restricitons/limitations.
Now, along that line of thought -- if I were to WAIVE my right to protection -- or to WAIVE my ability to hold someone responsible for NOT protection me when they "ought to be" (so sayeth precedents in certain litigous societies), why on Earth should I have to do it every time I make that choice? Normally, waiving such a thing need only be done once. If I didn't want such protection I'd happily sign such a waiver -- so long as I did't have to do it again and again.
Having to select a non-textual visual every time I boot up in the car is like making me sign a waiver over and over. It's a hassle. It takes time. And as others have pointed out -- it is a distraction in and of itself.
Someone already hit on the same thing I'd find completely acceptable: A user option in Emplode. It could work as follows:
-----
To solve the potential litigation issues -- have the Empeg boot (by default) into a text mode visual. However, have a toggle for this behaviour in Emplode and when a user changes it (to the non-default behaviour of "boot into last used visual" or somesuch) Emplode displays a warning message to the user (which the user must OK) -- and once OK'd the user is asked again if s/he is sure (and must acknowledge the significance a SECOND time). Assuming the user provided two consecutive acknowledgements to change into "boot-to-visual" mode (or somesuch) in the car, the mode would be toggled until the user opted to change it back.
If the warning is short (i.e. readable in a reasonable amount of time) and pertinent (to whatever you wish to warn the user of) -- it should cover the company legally and still allow users who feel they are competent enough to know when to drive (versus when to look at the display) to use the unit the way they want/choose to use it...
-----
I hope we don't see beta 10b run on a new OS (like MacOS or Windows NT) in order to further limit the unit.
-- Bleys
"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca
_________________________
"If you would judge, understand." -- Seneca
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#2056 - 27/03/2000 01:42
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: Lord Bleys]
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addict
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 483
Loc: Guernsey
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Indeed the constant "cover our asses every time you boot in the car" is what prompts me to leave beta 10 on the empeg until this is sorted out...
I was under the impression that a disclaimer in the user documentation was all that was required in such cases, but then again I am not a lawyer (And indeed not the sort of person to sue empeg because I crashed whilst looking at the screen)...
I also understand the position that empeg are in (or will be) when anyone can get hold of one... Perhaps as Bleys suggests, an option in emplode should reverse this change for people who agree to the conditions set out (although whatever system is used to achive this, it would be nice if it maintained this between software upgrades)...
I suppose a quick and dirty patch and recompile of the kernel will fix it, but that's not an option for everybody...
Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)
_________________________
Jazz
(List 112, Mk2 42 gig #40. Mk1 4 gig #30. Mk3 1.6 16v)
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#2057 - 27/03/2000 02:02
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: corby]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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> Yes, unfortunately we don't always have our remotes with us in the car.
We never claimed that all of the functionality was fast to access if you don't have the remote. That's why we provide one. Important stuff is available instantly from the buttons (mute/pause, volume, track skip, power down) because that's stuff you'll often need to access whilst driving. I don't think it'll be too hard to get into the habit of switching visuals in before you set off.
If this functionality (or anti-functionality, however you choose to look at it) had been in from the start I don't think anyone would be complaining, it's just that you're not used to it at the moment.
> then I am perfectly happy with you guys doing whatever you need to do
> to protect yourself from lawsuits
Thanks :-)
Rob
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#2058 - 27/03/2000 02:22
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: rob]
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addict
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 483
Loc: Guernsey
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In reply to:
If this functionality (or anti-functionality, however you choose to look at it) had been in from the start I don't think anyone would be complaining, it's just that you're not used to it at the moment.
I disagree... I think it would have been raised as a bug, or as a wish list item (Maybe not a high priority item, but there non the less =)
I've got the steering wheel remote in the car (because it doesn't fall off the dashboard into the passenger footwell when I go round corners) and that doesn't allow me to change the visuals (roll on configurable buttons) so I too would have to use the front buttons to change the visual (except I'm going to keep beta 10 for a while)
Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)
_________________________
Jazz
(List 112, Mk2 42 gig #40. Mk1 4 gig #30. Mk3 1.6 16v)
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#2059 - 27/03/2000 02:40
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: Lord Bleys]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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I'm personally very pleased to see the new feature - I feel that my job is more secure as a result. The fact that some people are so upset suggests that they DO spend time watching visuals whilst driving without a passenger in the car - which I find frightening!
It's nice that we have a safety feature in advance of it becoming compulsory (which it will do) for in-car equipment visible to the driver. It's also nice that we have implemented it in a very user friendly way, compared with other systems. Check out Alpine's new multimedia head, which displays a disclaimer (that must be acknowledged) every time it boots (even if you're just listening to the radio!).
> I hope we don't see beta 10b run on a new OS (like MacOS or Windows NT) in
> order to further limit the unit.
I'm sorry, I can't take this thread seriously any more, I'm off to do some work :-)
Rob
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#2060 - 27/03/2000 05:24
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: rob]
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addict
Registered: 09/06/1999
Posts: 483
Loc: Guernsey
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In reply to:
I'm personally very pleased to see the new feature - I feel that my job is more secure as a result. The fact that some people are so upset suggests that they DO spend time watching visuals whilst driving without a passenger in the car - which I find frightening!
It's nice that we have a safety feature in advance of it becoming compulsory (which it will do) for in-car equipment visible to the driver. It's also nice that we have implemented it in a very user friendly way, compared with other systems. Check out Alpine's new multimedia head, which displays a disclaimer (that must be acknowledged) every time it boots (even if you're just listening to the radio!).
Please take the time to read this, as I think it might explain why some people don't like this premature enforcement (It's not law yet, and probably will never be in lots of jurisdictions)
- Firstly, please don't insult us by assuming we watch visuals when driving. Please look at my reasons below.
- Secondly, it doesn't matter how badly other companies fit this "feature" the point is the public won't like it, and I fail to see how including user intervention where previously there was none is "User friendly".
- Thirdly, no mention has been made as to if you will provide an option (either in emplode, or on the player) to permanently turn this feature off, which would sort the whole problem, and I would shut up... =)
I should give some reasons as to why visuals are needed in the car anyway.. In my installation I've got 2 head units, because I sometimes don't take the empeg with me (Like if I'm going to the pub, and I'll have to park in a dodgy area), and this limits me to putting the empeg quite low down in the dash (It's about 6 inches off the floor) Now, due to bits of plastic, shadows etc the top of the display is quite difficult to see, so the menu system is difficult to use safely, so I use large playlists, and skip though the tracks with the steering wheel remote (Bought so I can keep my eyes on the road) On the full info screen I can only really see from the very bottom of the title (and the Artist line and everything below). The line info is viewable, because it's at the bottom of the screen, and normally I run InfoTex Zoom, because I can see most of that at a quick glance. So I don't spend time looking at pretty visuals in the car, but still your change means I have to fiddle with the menus to get _my_ preference back... Yes, it's my installation that means I can't see the damn thing properly, but hey, that's my problem. Please don't add to it further, allow us to be intelligent human beings, and let us choose what we want to do. I'll get me coat... Jazz (List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)
_________________________
Jazz
(List 112, Mk2 42 gig #40. Mk1 4 gig #30. Mk3 1.6 16v)
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#2061 - 27/03/2000 06:29
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: Jazzwire]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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I very much doubt that this feature will be removed (unless there was a test case that removed responsibility from the manufacturer on this issue).
I know everyone thinks they can run a business better than the people that are actually doing so (I'm just the same with other companies) but real world companies with lawyers and investors have certain responsibilities. Empeg is run to make a profit - sure we all have a lot of fun doing so, but if the company were crushed by legal expenses this would be a bad thing for everyone. Would you invest in a company which gambled needlessly with such issues?
I would concede that this functionality could be mildly inconvenient (takes me about 3 or 4 seconds before a journey to switch to visuals - or, more often, to Now & Next) but that's life. It's still a lot less hassle than juggling with hundreds of CD's, which would be the option if the empeg were removed from the market.
I think everything that can be said has been said, so unless something new comes up I'll bow out of this thread now. It's not like we have the option of changing it anyway.
Rob
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#2062 - 27/03/2000 07:44
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: rob]
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stranger
Registered: 31/07/1999
Posts: 34
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How about this for a new argument?
I will NOT buy an empeg if I can not turn this "feature" off with at the very least a config.ini option.
Yes, I do feel that strongly about it. Having the option in the config.ini will have it buried sufficiently deep to keep the litigious idiots away from it while allowing those of us who believe in personal responsibility to have a "properly" working system.
Stan Simmons
Texas, USA
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#2063 - 27/03/2000 08:35
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/06/1999
Posts: 2993
Loc: Wareham, Dorset, UK
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Rob, I get the feeling you are not very happy about this.
Has this change been forced upon empeg on the basis of legal advice or shareholder pressure?
_________________________
One of the few remaining Mk1 owners... #00015
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#2064 - 27/03/2000 08:41
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: stan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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I think we've been more responsive to client requests for changes to functionality than any other car stereo manufacturer in history. The fact we're even talking to you about this is something almost unique in this industry.
I guess all of that counts for zero, however, when we need to do something you don't much like to protect the company and the product.
If you're really going to change your mind about purchasing a player just because of this issue, then that's your decision and I can remove you from the queue right now (8438 right?). Most of our clients would have purchased a car player even if it didn't have any visuals - indeed, we get a lot of feedback from owners who had no idea how cool the visuals were until they received their player. I really don't think that having to press a button to switch them on is going to sway many people.
We try very hard to support the requests of our userbase (and of those people who haven't actually bought our product) but bullying tactics are not the most effective way to influence us. If an override for the driver safety protection issue is introduced it will be as a result of legal advice from experts in automotive litigation, not because we lose a few sales (or even a lot of sales).
> How about this for a new argument?
> I will NOT buy an empeg if I can not turn this "feature" off
That's no argument at all. If the "feature" is needed to protect the company (not to mention our clients, future resellers, installers etc) then that's our priority. If the entire market adopted your approach, and no legal alternative could be found, then I guess that would be the time for us to move on to different products. Luckily I see no chance of that happening - this is a great product and most of our clients realise that. Most new clients wouldn't even think twice about having to press a button to switch on a potentially distracting feature in the car.
Rob
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#2065 - 27/03/2000 09:03
Re: Beta 10a released
[Re: rob]
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enthusiast
Registered: 21/08/1999
Posts: 381
Loc: Northern Ireland
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Important stuff is available instantly from the buttons (mute/pause, volume, track skip, power down) because that's stuff you'll often need to access whilst driving.I can't speak for anyone else, but to me, this would be 'important stuff' Is the bottom (menu) button the only one which doesn't yet have two functions? (ie. press / press & hold) Could a 'long press' on the bottom button toggle between visuals/info mode? Then if I set the info mode to Now & Next, say, I can instantly go from that to a visual and back again? I don't watch the visuals while moving (I have plenty of time in traffic jams/at traffic lights!), but sometimes the remote can slip down the side of the seat (or fall into the passenger footwell), and switching to visuals wouldn't necessarily be the first thing I want to do when I get in the car. Some mornings (well, most mornings actually) the first priority is to get moving as soon as possible so I'm not any later for work than I need to be!  As I said before, I can imagine the legal minefields that are going to appear with all this stuff (imagine the RIAA getting their hands on a case where 'MP3 causes multiple pile-up on freeway'!!) but there must be some sort of compromise here. As it stands, it takes at least 2 presses of the remote button to get back to visuals mode. (I know, it's soooo hard to press it twice ) But this seems to be quite important to several of us here... Geoff ---- ------- Reg No. 554, s/n 00064 - It's mine I tell you.... all mine :)
_________________________
Geoff
---- -------
Mk1 Blue - was 4GB, now 16GB
Mk2 Red - was 12GB, now 60GB
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