I've been thinking about the military for some time. I've also thought about a lot of other career possibilities, partly because I have no idea what I want to do with my life. My parents are well off and have supported me through college, although I have no made much progress for the last year or so. I'm currently 23, with about one year of schooling left. Perhaps I just don't want to deal with what happens after I graduate.

I've also thought about law enforcement as a career, although the more I've thought about it, the less appealing its been. Also, my parents have a lot of connections, and I surely could get a job with a family friend, but somehow that doesn't feel right. Besides, when I worked for an engineering firm and a biotechnology company, I really didn't have the skills necessary to make it past the low-level jobs. I'm one of the best I know at computer troubleshooting (building and fixing computers), but my expertise in programming and other computer skills is limited, though I really helped my father develop his internet company. My current major is political science, which I am quite good at, and I may eventually start volunteering for political campaigns, but I need better credentials to do much in it.

One of my biggest problems is that I let myself off too easily. I won't ever let other people down, but when I get tired or sick, I sometimes let things like schoolwork go, with disastrous consequences. I recognize the problem, but I can't seem to solve it. Ironically, I often spend my free time fixing things up and improving my living space or the lives of those around me, but I don't always focus on what is important.


Reasons I would want to join the Army, National Guard, etc.:

1. I could learn new skills. I've always been interested in Military Science in particular, but it is pretty hard to learn much about it as a civilian. Specific career skills would also be useful, but I don't really want to train as a truck driver, cook, or airplane mechanic. I also don't want to focus on jobs that deal with skills I already know, like computers. I think I'd want one of the combat arms jobs (tanks, scouts, infantry, etc.).

2. Self-discipline. This gets repeated so often that it is almost cliched, but it is perhaps the biggest thing holding me back right now.

3. Delay having to choose a career. Frankly, I can spend a few years in the military, learning stuff, and then, hopefully, I'll have a better idea of what I want to do in life. Perhaps not, but at least I'll have done something useful in the meantime.

4. Serve my country. A lot of people joke about patriotism, especially in academia, but duty, to my country among other things, is very important to me. I might eventually go into politics, but a resume is actually a very minor concern. I am not a John Kerry. I've also already travelled over much of the world, so that isn't a driving factor either. I feel as if it is very important for me to serve my country at some point.

5. Feel useful. I feel kind of worthless right now, not really doing anything important. I am capable of great things, but I don't feel as if I've accomplished much. In the military, I'd want to be placed somewhere that my performance made an appreciable effect.


There are negatives to the military, such as:

1. Not being in control of your own life - this one will probably annoy me no end, but I think I can deal with it for a few years. Hopefully, I won't be assigned a job I hate, or sent to a hellhole.

2. Low pay - at least there are few expenses and some good benefits. I don't have any dependants, so this isn't such a big deal to me.

3. Danger - I'm not afraid of death (though I am afraid of permament injury, failure, and a host of other things). While I certainly do not wish to die, I am willing to risk it for a noble cause. In actuality, the chance of being killed in today's army is pretty low.

4. Time - I might end up having to stay longer than I want, especially if they use stop-loss orders.


I'm probably going to be academically suspended for one semester. Then, I'll have one more year of college. I don't know what to do during that downtime; I really do not wish to live at home, even though I get along well with my parents.

I could join the National Guard now and PROBABLY get my training in during that time period. One of my good friends is an officer in a tank unit about 10 miles from my parents' house. They seem like good guys and they value what they do. They also have openings available, as enlisted or officer. I am one inch too tall to be a tanker, but I could probably get around that. This particular unit is unlikely to deploy for the next year (most companies are retraining for different mission requirements), but nothing is ever certain. I visited them at the armory while they were training and spent the morning hanging out, so I got a general feel for the guys.

I probably have the option of being an officer. I believe that I need 90 hours of college credit by the time I'd finish Officer Candidacy School. Currently, I have 83.7. Somehow, I'd need to complete another half-semester before then. I need to ask more questions about how this is handled.

I could also join the army now and finish college later, but I might not have the option to be an officer. The National Guard recruitment guy couldn't give me advice here. If I joined the Guard and then eventually changed to full-time army, some things would carry over, while others (in particular OCS), would not. I really don't know if I could make the change, and if so, what the consequences would be.

I am not really clear on the minimum commitment. The army website says something about 8 years total... The National Guard Recruitment guy said something about 3 years, plus an additional three if I chose to pursue becoming an officer.

I feel as if the recruitment officer was not always entirely honest with me. He is a personal friend of my buddy in his unit, but I felt like it was pulling teeth to get him to tell me about stop-loss orders, length of deployments, and other things that I would really need to know. It makes me very uncomfortable not knowing about potential downsides, whereas if I was just told about them straight-up, I'd probably be OK with them.

-Biscuits

Just some quick thoughts:

I'd step back a bit and start by talking the issues over with counselors at your school (academic advisors as well as personal counselors) and your family. It sounds sorta like you want to hit the reset button due to discomfort about where you are right now.

The on and off immobility due to fear/discomfort at failure/potential failure is often a self fulfilling thing...I know all about that, even though I continue to resist dealing with it.

I can't state for the record this is part of it, but...you may also have an undiagnosed ADHD or similar condition that has helped to lead you to this particular set of crossroads.

On the other hand, this could be the thing that you need.

But first, work with those who can and should help you figure out what's going on in there...

-brendan

Customsex is in the army (or is it air force), well pretty sure he's in the armed forces anyway. Maybe he could chime in at this point and offer some advice.

I have a friend who's brother is a full-time student in college and also is active in the navy (I think it's the navy if memory serves me correctly). I don't know if they still offer this or not but that's another option. You could go to basic during your semester off and then come back and be a full time student until you finished while you were enlisted. Again, I'm not sure of the details or if they even do this anymore but I know it's been done before.

Check on the Air Force or Air National Guard. My wife is in the latter. Said it's a much easier basic training and much more comfortable conditions on bases and such, especially when deployed.

I feel as if the recruitment officer was not always entirely honest with me. He is a personal friend of my buddy in his unit, but I felt like it was pulling teeth to get him to tell me about stop-loss orders, length of deployments, and other things that I would really need to know. It makes me very uncomfortable not knowing about potential downsides, whereas if I was just told about them straight-up, I'd probably be OK with them.

Maybe you could try call several recruiters and see if the information matches. I have dealt with them for reasons other than getting into the army and while they are usually nice they seem like car salesmen.

A couple of comments:

> 1. I could learn new skills.

Just remember that the skills most people learn are ones that won't do you a whole lot of good in real life. And if the Army (or whoever) promises you something specific beforehand; that you will do this or that specific thing, don't believe them. Promises made before you join mean very little to them, and they will easily screw you to get you to join, at which point they can do what they want with you.

> I am willing to risk it for a noble cause.

Chances are if you join in the next couple of years, you are going to Iraq. If you consider that a noble cause, more power to you. But consider that re-enlistments in the armed forces are way down right now; I don't think the people there are very happy about being there.

i joined the air force, as i saw it as the best deal for me. i went in with a guaranteed job (ie. it was in my contract that i would get the job i requested).

just because you learn a skill in/for the military doesnt mean that it is likely to not have any real world application. many jobs can be carried over into the civilian sector. you could become a consultant to companies manufacturing equipment you dealt with every day.

the different branches are just that. i chose the air force as it is more geared towards a higher technical level and takes care of its people a little better. but then, each branch also has different missions. the army and marines are more likely to get shot at than most air force and navy, simply because of the way that combat is heading these days.
im not an expert on any of these subjects, these are just general thoughts and views.

i am happy with the choice that i made. i cant guarantee that you would be. i think that the best advice that i can offer is this : learn everything you can before hand. shop around. talk to the different branches and talk to different recruiters in the branches. if you know what you would like to be doing, try to get a guaranteed slot. if you leave the job placement decision up to the military it is very possible that you may end up doing something that you dont want to/wouldnt be happy with.

note : none of the above comments carry any official weight. they are my viewpoints, nothing else

I scored 1560 on the SAT (out of 1600). I've consistently scored in the 99th percentile in standardized tests, although I've never taken the ASVAB. As far as physical requirements go, I am not currently in shape, but I believe that I could be very fit by the time I started.

I suppose I should perhaps try to pay attention to what kind of training would be useful in the civilian market. I am more interested in the combat arms jobs, but I have a lot of technical skills already. I am certainly willing to learn more, but I would rather learn new skills than just rehash the same old stuff. Does anyone have any recommendations? I'm going to browse through the job listings, but they rarely give an accurate idea of what they are.

Does anyone have any thoughts on the Army versus National Guard? I might also look at the Marines, but the Navy and Air Force don't have many combat-oriented jobs available. With my current schedule (school now, then several months off, then back to school), National Guard seems to make more sense. I could get all the training done while under academic suspension, but I ought to be able to resume classes immediately after.

Eventually, I could go to OCS, but I don't know how long I'd have to wait: whether I could do it right after basic training, or only after I completed more college credits. The recruiter said that it was a good idea to do enlisted Advanced Individual Training (AIT) before even starting OCS.

-Biscuits

I think I'll talk to the guy on the phone tomorrow to get his email address. Once I get a response, I can go back over this on the phone or in person.



I'd want all training done in a certain timeframe. I should be taking classes through mid-May and then resuming them early-January. Is that a realistic goal? Is there anything special I would need to do to make that likely to happen (I realize that I could be deployed, etc.)?

Exactly what are the requirements to go into OCS? I currently have 83.7 credit hours (maybe 85-90 if I can get more courses transferred). One-half semester will give me 90. 2 1/2 semesters should graduate me (~120). Could I take OCS immediately, or would I have to complete more courses before I could begin? If I can not take OCS right away, what would I do until then? What would be the process when I did become eligible?

Is there any chance of getting into this unit? What are the exact height requirements for a tanker, and, if I am slightly over, is there a way to get them waived?

What are combat arms jobs with technical aspects, whether in this unit or elsewhere? I have some electronics and computer skills (hardware, troubleshooting, and operation), though one of my primary reasons for joining would be to learn new skills. First and foremost, it would have to be a combat-oriented job. Recommendations?

Although it is not one of my chief reasons for joining, what would my recruitment bonuses be? I have 83.7 semester-hours of college credit. Obviously, it depends a great deal on job choice, especially if I have desireable special skills.

What is the actual total commitment? It is my understanding that it is 3 years of enlisted national guard, 6 years of national guard with OCS, and the remainder of an 8 year term to be made up in active service, national guard, active reserve, or inactive reserve. Please elaborate if possible.

If I later wanted to go full-time, how would I go about doing that? Is it possible to do so through the National Guard? The Army? Would it change my commitment term? If I went OCS in the National Guard, would I have to complete it a second time for Army? How are ranks handled? Other qualifications and training?

Please be as honest as possible with me; knowing potential downsides in advance will set my mind at rest. I understand that recruitment is one of the most strenuous jobs in the armed forces, with extreme work hours and stress. Thank you in advance for answering my questions; I wouldn't be asking so much of your time if I wasn't serious about this.

-Biscuits

I understand that recruitment is one of the most strenuous jobs in the armed forces, with extreme work hours and stress.

Yeah. I'm sure it's much more trying than being shot at.

Heh, perhaps I should rephrase that then....

Recruitment folks work more hours on a weekly basis than almost anyone else. They also are given impossible recruitment goals, and, if they fail to meet them, their career is often at an end (discharge). Some recruitment people resort to dishonest behavior to meet quotas, but those folks also see their careers end (dishonorable discharge).

-Biscuits

I'm not sure how to put this other than - I think you'll be incredibly bored. My father was in for 21 years, so don't think I'm calling people in the military "stupid", I'm not. I'm just picturing you and your 1560 / 1600 brain surrounded by a lot of 18 year old kids that can't spell their own names, and a hell of a lot of frustration with that. It would kill me anyways...

I've met lots of HIGHLY intelligent people in the military, especially the Air Force and Marine Corps. Admittedly I've also met a lot of other types of people too . . .

I think I'm going to go through with it, if I can make the schedules match. Basically, I'd join up with the Army National Guard now in Armor, if I can get it (I'm 6'3", max height is supposed to be 6'1", even though one guy is almost 6" over that).

I'd try to get basic training as early as possible. OCS should be available to me right away, although the recruiting guy recommends an enlisted AIT (cavalry scout) before starting it. In either case, it would be important to get all the training done before year's end, if I can swing it.

Next spring and summer, I'd take a full load of classes and hope I don't get deployed overseas during those months. If not, I'll finally get my diploma.

Then, I have the option of continuing in the Army National Guard for another 5 years or getting a conditional discharge to go to active army (which might require OCS again.... ugh).

I still need questions answered before signing on the dotted line. I also need to talk to my school guidance counselor and my parents first.

-Biscuits

Well... good luck whatever you choose.

Becoming an officer should make you prime management beef. At least that's what I hear.

Sounds like you've got a plan, but are you sure you want to go with the Army? As a contractor who runs a help desk servicing all branches of the military I've gotten to speak with a lot of people in each service, and based on that I'd choose either the Marine Corps or the Air Force. In my experience:

Army: Spends all its money on recruitment and bodies so doesn't have a lot to invest in technology, education, etc. I've met some bright Army personnel, but working this helpdesk the Army has been responsible for the more . . . notable calls.

Navy: Based on my (limited) experience working with Navy people, I’d steer clear of the Navy altogether. Almost all of them that I’ve met have been concerned deflecting or not taking responsibility to the detriment of making real progress. Admittedly there was one major incident of this that really impacted my job, so that might color my view of the Navy a bit.

Air Force: Though they suffer a bit from the same silly rules/regulations aspects that are so evident in the Navy (and to some extent really all of the services), the Air Force seems to be brimming full of bright, intelligent people who are well spoken and get to do cool stuff, at least the officers anyway.

Marine Corps: In my limited experience with them I’ve found that they are truly amazing people. They know how to get things done with whatever resources they have available, they don’t make excuses, and very seldom try to shift blame around. This perception might also be colored a bit because they I don’t have much exposure to them. They hardly ever call our helpdesk and yet have one of the highest rates of usages of our software (Army is the lowest).

One example of the cultural differences between the services was how they each responded to beta software I sent out at one point. The Army had difficulty working the software initially, but ultimately was able to test it and finally make a few recommendations. The Navy wasn’t authorized to use the software (and still isn’t, a year and a half after it’s gone into production). The Air Force asked a lot of highly intelligent questions and caught the majority of the bugs. The Marine Corps gave me only one phone call, which basically said, “We’ve learned how to get around in the software and can address any issues we have with it in the field. You don’t need to change anything for us.”

Just my observations, take them for what they’re worth.

I can't state for the record this is part of it, but...you may also have an undiagnosed ADHD or similar condition that has helped to lead you to this particular set of crossroads.

Hm... Googled for ADHD because I didn't know what it was... Read a list of 18 symptoms, and could say `yea' to 8 of 'em... I was almost at the point where I'd go to a shrink anyway, bit it's nice to know what it (possibly) is.

Thanks man.

I'm fairly convinced that ADHD is prevalent in techie circles. I'm also convinced I've got a tad of it (among other issues).

Glad that helped, Yonzie. Note, however, that I'd trust a doctor's diagnosis (better yet, two doctors' diagnoses) before the web, though...sounds like that's the direction you're going, so good luck.

-brendan

PS - Full Disclosure: my mom is a psychiatrist.

Jeff - great observations and very amusing as well.

-brendan

Marine Corps: In my limited experience with them I’ve found that they are truly amazing people. They know how to get things done with whatever resources they have available, they don’t make excuses, and very seldom try to shift blame around. This perception might also be colored a bit because they I don’t have much exposure to them.

I've met a few (ex) Marines, and that pretty much sums up the ones I know, too. Very talented, very responsible, very capable. Were I to be foolhardy enough to join the military, that's the one I'd go for, simply because of the immense amount of respect I have for these friends.

I want combat arms, so that excluded the Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Reserve (all branches), Air Guard, and probably a few others.

I have the choice of Army, Army National Guard, and Marines. My first choice right now is the Army National Guard for one very simple reason: I can join now. The Army might be my choice if I wait until graduation before joining, simply because I could readily move to the National Guard after a few years, whereas there does not seem to be an equivalent body for the Marines.

Marines have an attitude that they are best in the world and look down their noses at the other branches. Many civilians do the same thing. Frankly, I perceive this as arrogance more than anything, though I do not have the personal experience to be able to effectively judge. My own self-worth is also more dependant upon, well, myself, than the label of which branch I choose to join. If I make a damned good Army officer or a damned good Marine officer, I'm still, presumably, just as good an officer. The Marines seem more narrowly focused on Combat Arms, which may be why they have the better reputation. Is there really a compelling reason to choose Combat Arms in Marines over Army?

-Biscuits

Marines have an attitude that they are best in the world and look down their noses at the other branches.

Perhaps. It is true that the Marines are a pretty confident bunch. I've experienced the "we're the best" attitude in all the services, though the Army and Air Force people I've met almost seem to adopt this attitude because they are expected to and only take it half seriously.

s there really a compelling reason to choose Combat Arms in Marines over Army?

Not so far, it seems. If all you have to go on is the impressions of a few of us on the BBS, I'd say go to the service you're confortable with. I just wanted to make sure you'd considered all of the options.

Marines have an attitude that they are best in the world and look down their noses at the other branches.

Perhaps. It is true that the Marines are a pretty confident bunch. I've experienced the "we're the best" attitude in all the services

I think you'll find that *any* group that large will have its share of elitist snobs. The ex-Marines I know are the complete opposite of attitude. Granted, I don't know how they view the other branches of the service, but I'd take that all with a grain of salt -- everyone has their inter-whatever rivalries: my school's better than yours; my country's better than yours; my team's better than yours; etc.

I say be a Marine -- you get a cool sword!

Marines do have the most intensive basic training of all the armed forces. I have family/friends in all branches except the coast guard, and they all sit around and compare notes on the services when together. Let me just say that my cousin in the marines was laughing at how easy my wife's basic training was (air national guard.) His was almost twice as long and twice as hard. So yeah, they may carry a bit superiority in their attitude, but if you've ever seen one of those gaunt, fearsome men with the fire in their eyes at their basic training graduation, you know they've earned it.

How are the NOAA Corps and the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps?

Doh! Truth to tell, I didn't know they existed. I have no family or friends in either. I don't know about the NOAA, but I'm pretty sure the Marines basic training is more severe than the Public Health Service Commissioned Corps.

Currently, I am looking at Academic Suspension, which will mean that I can not take any classes between mid-May and early January. If I finish without further mishap, I would take classes next over the Spring and Summer of 2005 and graduate that August.

Current - May, 2004: Taking classes
May, 2004 - January 2005: No plans
January, 2005 - August, 2005: Taking classes
August. 2005 - Future: No plans

Unlike everywhere else, if you join the National Guard, you are a member immediately, and expected to show up for monthly drill, even before you've completed Basic Training. I don't know what happens if I join and then my unit deploys:
-Before I take Basic
-During Basic
-During OCS
The unit that I would like to join is probably not going to deploy in 2004 since they are currently retraining, but it is almost a sure thing that they'll get deployed sometime in 2005.

Of course, they are an armor unit, and I may be 1 3/4" too tall to join. Several of the guys think they could make it happen, but the recruiter is (wisely) not making any promises. I'm going to try to get measured with no shoes or socks and then see if I can get away with slumping a little. Who knows?

If I couldn't get this unit, I'd get a different combat arms job, such as Infantry, Mechanized Infantry, Cavalry Scout, etc. I think the Guard is easier than elsewhere to get the job and posting that you want, but, of course, one never knows.

Anyway, here are my options:

1. Join the National Guard now. Take Basic this Summer, accelerated OCS this before the end of the year. (This is ideal, but it is unlikely that I could get into OCS so soon)

2. Join the National Guard now. Take Basic this Summer/Fall, accelerated OCS after I graduate. (This is a long wait before OCS)

3. Join the National Guard now. Take Basic this Summer/Fall, then, after I graduate, try to get a conditional release to join the Army to take Army OCS. (The Conditional Discharge and CO recommendation for OCS might both take time)

4. Wait until I graduate and join the Army. Take Basic and OCS then.

5. Join the National Guard now. Take Basic this Summer/Fall, year-long weekend OCS. (I'd rather just do all of OCS at once, but I wouldn't be deployed until I've finished school)

6. Join the National Guard now. Take Basic this Summer/Fall, accelerated OCS next spring/summer. (This will delay my schooling at least one semester and screw up my lease, but I could be an officer sooner)


I am really nervous about making a decision, since it is a life-changing event, but I am pretty sure that I want to do it. Frankly, I really don't know the questions to ask, and the recruiter only seems interested in answering EXACTLY the question posed to him, with no additional information. I've read what I can on the official and unofficial websites, talked to folks that have done it themselves, and posted questions on several web forums. I suppose the only thing left to do is choose the exact method of entry and then broach the subject with my parents and my sister. They won't be happy, but they'll support me whatever I choose to do.

-Biscuits