#245819 - 12/01/2005 03:31
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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goverment should stay out of my life unless I am directly harming someone else.
Like... directly harming me by causing my insurance rates to go up because people not wearing seat belts usually have enormously greater medical bills that someone has to pay for?
And, no, these people do not pay for their own emergency room care. Their insurance companies do, whereupon they pass those expenses on to me. Or the hospital pays for it, whereupon they raise their rates and again pass those expenses on to my insurance company which passes them on to me.
Now, if you wish to pass legislation denying medical care and insurance to perople who refuse to wear seat belts, then seatbelt laws will become unnecessary. Until then, they are simply protecting MY financial interests.
tanstaafl.
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"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#245820 - 12/01/2005 03:45
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
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Why don't we outlaw sky diving, mountain climbing, or any other dangerous activity then.
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Matt
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#245821 - 12/01/2005 05:03
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Dylan]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> Like what?
Like freedom of speech, to name a biggie. In France, the land of the man who famously said "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" which I claim as one of my personal mantras, it is now illegal to say certain things, as Brigitte Bardot has found out the hard way. Germany does the same thing, and England is heading the same way. Freedom of religion is also suffering in France and elsewhere. All in the name of indirect harm; that things you say, while not actually harming someone else, cause bad "atmospheres" and such. This is where this slippery slope is leading us in America as well.
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#245822 - 12/01/2005 05:05
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: jimhogan]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> If not personally qualified as an EMT or paramedic, is it not then reasonable to walk away
I'm sorry, I don't see the connection. How does his lack of harming anyone directly have anything to do with you being compassionate and having empathy, or saving a life if you can?
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#245823 - 12/01/2005 05:18
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> Like... directly harming me by causing my insurance rates to go up
No, that would be the aformentioned "indirect harm". He is not harming you personally. Many things people do cause you indirect harm, from people talking too loud on their cell-phone on up...I think having freedom is more important than legislating every dangerous behavior in the world myself, but I am, apparently, part of the ever-increasing minority.
As for the other points you bring up I think msaeger's point about other dangerous activities such as, say, mountain biking, hit it well enough.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#245824 - 12/01/2005 06:21
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
This is where this slippery slope is leading us in America as well.
Do you mean to say that prior to 9/11 Americans (or 'invention' of 'political correctness' or whichever recent deviation you had in mind) enjoyed absolute freedom of speech? What about, for example, House Un-American Activities Committee (some historical details, eg, here)?
OTOH, I agree that Europens sometimes overreact to hate-speech under the pressure of continent's collective memory of fascism and nacism and how slippery that slope was.
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#245825 - 12/01/2005 07:00
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: bonzi]
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old hand
Registered: 28/12/2001
Posts: 868
Loc: Los Angeles
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> Do you mean to say that prior to 9/11 Americans (or 'invention' of 'political correctness' or whichever recent deviation you had in mind) enjoyed absolute freedom of speech?
Yes, you do have a point. The United States has never really lived up to its ideals, from the McCarthy dog-and-pony show all the way back to the various sedition acts of the 1800s. And it is true that in the last 40 years or so we have seen more real freedom for Americans than ever before, and despite the swinging back of the pendulum we have seen recently, I doubt we will ever go back to the previous level again. Of course, a couple of years ago I wouldn't have imagined that we would ever have another attrocity like the Japanese internment camps of Word War II, but of course that was before Guantanomo.
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Ninti - MK IIa 60GB Smoke, 30GB, 10GB
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#245826 - 12/01/2005 07:12
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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veteran
Registered: 01/10/2001
Posts: 1307
Loc: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Quote:
despite the swinging back of the pendulum we have seen recently, I doubt we will ever go back to the previous level again
I really, really, really hope (and pray) that you are right.
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#245827 - 12/01/2005 07:57
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: julf]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
I really, really, really hope (and pray) that you are right.
Errr, I think he thought post-McCarthy/pre-Bush 'golden era'...
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#245828 - 12/01/2005 08:02
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
And it is true that in the last 40 years or so we have seen more real freedom for Americans than ever before, and despite the swinging back of the pendulum we have seen recently, I doubt we will ever go back to the previous level again. Of course, a couple of years ago I wouldn't have imagined that we would ever have another attrocity like the Japanese internment camps of Word War II, but of course that was before Guantanomo.
I agree. From last vestiges of 'Jim Crow laws' to 'political correctness' in, what, two decades, that was quite an accomplishment. (Not that I think PC is great a accomplishment in itself, just a kind other extreme of the pendulum path, often used to disguise real problems still there.)
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
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#245829 - 12/01/2005 16:31
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12341
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
I think goverment should stay the hell out of my business when it doesn't really affect anyone else but me...but I still put the damn thing on every time because, well, I am not a moron.
So at least we can all agree that the stupidest kind of people in this particular topic are those who don't wear seatbelts specifically because the government is telling them to? I mean, I disagree with your view on the laws governing it, but I'm glad to see you still wear it anyway.
Personally, I don't care if it's the law or not. I simply don't feel right if and when I'm driving or riding without one. So does my father, even though he grew up in the age when most cars he rode in didn't have them.
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Matt
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#245830 - 12/01/2005 16:43
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I don't know. The stupidest people are the ones who don't wear them just because they don't want to. At least the ones with the libertarian opposition have some solid reasoning behind it.
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Bitt Faulk
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#245831 - 12/01/2005 16:53
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: ninti]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
I'm sorry, I don't see the connection. How does his lack of harming anyone directly have anything to do with you being compassionate and having empathy, or saving a life if you can?
I have no truck with compassion and empathy and I'm exaggerating the issue of qualifications a bit. Having watched compassionate citizens almost kill accident victims or turn them into quadriplegics, though, I can say that compassion is rarely enough and a willingness to act without proper knowledge could be a net minus for that accident victim.
So, in my exaggerated situation where my onlooker has no knowledge of advanced first aid that could materially improve this gent's situation, what is it that they probably *do* know that could help the poor sod? They know how to dial the phone.
In my pure, Big-L Libertarian world, what number do they dial?
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Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#245832 - 12/01/2005 19:12
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
At least the ones with the libertarian opposition have some solid reasoning behind it.
I wouldn't use the word "solid", but it is logic, I suppose. Still, the "I'm not going to do it just because you said I have to" is pretty childish at best, and dangerous at worst.
FWIW, I'm not big on seatbelt saftey laws. I don't think the government should be involved in telling us how to protect ourselves. However, where I do see a place for the government to step in is parents who don't buckle their children in.
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-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#245833 - 13/01/2005 00:42
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 13/02/2002
Posts: 3212
Loc: Portland, OR
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Quote:
Everyone should be required by law to do nothing but outdoor manual labour in the unpolluted far north.
I want to be.... a Lumberjack! 
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#245834 - 13/01/2005 01:24
Re: Ultimate Irony
[Re: canuckInOR]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Do you wear high heels, suspendies or a bra tho? 
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