#247497 - 26/01/2005 02:19
HDTV Shopping
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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I think I am finally going to plop down the cash to go HDTV (or rather defer it over 3 years), and so far I have my sights on this Samsung HDTV unit. Anyone have any experience with this exact model? Or DLP in general? For what I want to pay, either DLP or LCD real projection seem to be the best value and quality. Unfortunatly front projection is out of the question for now. And plasma still has way too many issues with burn in, and problems at mile+ altitudes. TV service, I may look into Voom, even with the sale of the bird to Echostar. True some of the channels are crap, but they at least offer some other channels both Dish and DirecTV seem to lack in HD at this time. Local cable is out of the question, I refuse to give Adelphia any more money.
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#247498 - 26/01/2005 02:27
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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DirecTV is going to mpeg4 very soon so they can have a lot more HD content.. so, if you go with Boom, don't sign a 5 year contract or anything  . Other than that, my HDTV set is pretty old and the only regret I have is that it only have one component input.
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Brad B.
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#247499 - 26/01/2005 02:41
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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My biggest problem with the current crop of DLP and LCD televisions is the fact that they don't actually do HDTV resolution. They almost all downsample to 720 or 768. Even the companies that used to do true-1080 CRT projectors are backing off to LCD/DLP because there's less trouble with convergence, color balance, and burn-in.
Samsung just came out with some true-1080 LCD displays, but they're pricey.
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#247500 - 26/01/2005 02:46
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Oh. One other reason to consider a CRT projector (if you can find a good one) over LCD or DLP projectors, is that you don't have to replace the bulb every year. If you are about to get an LCD or DLP projector, research how much the light bulb costs and how often it needs to be replaced.
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#247501 - 26/01/2005 02:52
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Have you looked at rear projection LCD? My father recently bought the 60" Sony, and it's simply stunning. IMO, I'd be completely satisfied with this set myself. If I were looking to get a set of my own, there would only be two ways to improve on this set: bigger screen and no speakers. Well, there's a 70" version. And sadly, all TVs these days seem to come with the stupid speakers.
Anyway, I can whole-heartedly endorse the LCD rear projection set.
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Matt
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#247502 - 26/01/2005 02:54
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Even though those speakers always are lacking, they are handy to have when you use the front panel input to hook up a video camera or game console.
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Brad B.
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#247504 - 26/01/2005 03:14
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: Dignan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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My reciever doesn't have component video, so I don't use it for video switching. Because of this, to have a video camera hooked up, I would need to run the video to the television and the audio to the receiver to be able to hear AND see it. You're right though, I need to upgrade my receiver. 
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Brad B.
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#247505 - 26/01/2005 04:05
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Everything I have seen says 1280x720p is a valid HDTV resolution, and is sometimes preferred to 1920x1080i due to motion issues with interlacing. The problem is noone is fully behind either resolution. ABC and FOX support 720p, while NBC and CBS support 1080i.
One other benefit I see of going with a 720p display now. I plan on running a computer off the set and will probably play a decent amount of games on it. 1280x720 can be hit easially by most games on middle of the road video cards.
I figure down the road I can look at upgrading to a true 1080p TV if such content starts coming online. But in any case, 720p will be a decent upgrade above my current viewing experience.
Bulb wise, the Samsung above claims 8000 hours of use, or about a full years worth if I left it on 24/7. Bulbs are $180ish now, and will probably drop in the future. I'm pondering getting the Best Buy coverage plan on the unit, as that would even cover the bulbs.
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#247507 - 26/01/2005 07:43
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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I was planning on holding off till March when Voom was expected to expand to 70 HD channels and bring out their PVR. But two things happened to change my mind.
Echostar bought the Voom Rainbow 1 satellite. Seems bad, but really for me it means a cheep HDTV decoder box. Voom is offering $1 installs with 6 month commitments, but odds are they won't last that long. So I get a box capable of doing the off air decoding, and the antenna for $1 + a few $50 payments for monthly service.
Best Buy is also doing 36 months no interest on almost all their TVs this week. Kinda hard to say no at that point.
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#247508 - 26/01/2005 14:18
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Remember that that usually means that if you haven't paid it off in that 36 months, you get charged all the interest they would have charged over those 36 months.
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Bitt Faulk
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#247509 - 26/01/2005 14:36
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 18/02/2002
Posts: 658
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Are you sure they let you keep the box after the 6 month commmitment is up? If so, I think I might have to sign up for that.
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#247510 - 26/01/2005 15:56
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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I've got a Hitachi 43" CRT rear-projector. It's now about five years old and still going strong. I think I originally paid $2500. Now-a-days, you can find these things for much, much less.
Convergence is a real issue. Even though my set can "automatically" converge itself, it's still never quite right. I read the service manual (found the PDF online) and it turns out that they're deliberately defocusing the blue gun. It's fuzzy by design. The DLP or LCD rear-projectors look much, much sharper, and the cabinets aren't as big. You still have off-axis viewing issues, but that goes with the rear-projector territory. To fix it, you have to go plasma or LCD panel. The LCD panels are just beyond beautiful, but they're extremely expensive. If you had $6000 to drop, I'd go for the Sharp Aquos 45" LCD. If you're looking to spend $2000 or less, then the DLP/LCD rear-projectors are a very attractive choice.
In terms of content, I'm very happy with my HD-TiVo and DirecTV service. I think Sony has a HD DVR now that does over-the-air and maybe cable-card, and there's also some kind of Dish HD DVR solution. It was a pain to put the big weathervane antenna (~$100 ChannelMaster) on my roof, but now my HD-Tivo gets HD locals and HD satellite and the TV in the bedroom gets OTA standard-def at no extra charge.
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#247511 - 26/01/2005 16:52
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
I read the service manual (found the PDF online) and it turns out that they're deliberately defocusing the blue gun. It's fuzzy by design.
Freeze right there. Don't touch the blue gun focus. Trust me on this one. I know it's tempting. I've been there.
Yes the blue gun is fuzzier than the other two. Yes it's possible to make it sharper than the factory focus. I did this myself: I thought I'd be all cool and make the blue gun on my Mits sharper. It was easy to do, I did it, it worked.
But here's what happened, and I didn't realize this is what had happened until I had a pro come in and fix it for me...
When you sharpen that blue gun, you're not just changing its focus. You're also changing the actual color output. The lines on your test pattern go from a pure blue to a sort of a cyan color. And suddenly everything on the screen looks greenish. And you start messing with the color controls, and since you're working from a bad color base to begin with, you just get things farther and farther out of wack. And now the only solution is to have an experienced professional with calibrated equipment (colorimeter and such) come in and put it all back to spec for you... Starting with step number one of putting that blue gun's focus back to where it belongs...
This also counts, to a lesser degree, for the red and green guns. My advice to you: Don't touch the gun focus. Ever.
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#247512 - 26/01/2005 17:46
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 12/11/2001
Posts: 7738
Loc: Toronto, CANADA
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Go look at them in person. I can tell you from my experience as a casual viewer (don't own one myself) that I don't like DLP rear or front projection because of color separation. If you talk, chew, move your head or eyes while watching, you will see red, green and blue shifts all over the image. I saw a few sets that got around this at CES, but they were few and far between. 3LCD rear projection provided by far the best images I have ever seen on any display. Not as widely adopted as DLP, it's becoming more common from a number of manufacturers nonetheless. Sony and others at various price points. It's an Epson technology (DLP is Texas Instruments) and was heavily promoted at CES earlier this month. Simply stunning displays at Epson's own booth and their (and partners) 3LCD technology showcase booth. http://www.3lcd.com Worth looking into. Also worth looking into is a good scaler if the one built into the set isn't the greatest. Affordable and versatile: http://www.dvdo.com. It also handles video switching and can go from one input topology to a different output. I've been recommending it as an expensive (possible) way to connect a Mac Mini to an HD set that lacks DVI (though I'd love someone to confirm it works  ) Bruno
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#247513 - 26/01/2005 17:53
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
My advice to you: Don't touch the gun focus. Ever.
Wow, you can change the color by changing the focus? Who knew?
Anyway, if I were buying something new on a budget, I'd go for the DLP/LCD rear-projector solution, because you get the sharpness and don't have to fuss around with convergence (or focus issues).
Still, make sure you see one in person before dropping your dollars. If you're feeling industrious, take along a video calibration disc (I've got the "Video Essentials" DVD) and make sure you've got the brightness, contrast, and color set properly before you start making comparisons between sets. Most consumer electronic stores have the settings all wrong, particularly with random customers pressing random buttons to see what happens.
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#247514 - 26/01/2005 17:53
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Go look at them in person.
And bring a bag of corn nuts.
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#247515 - 26/01/2005 18:07
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Wow, you can change the color by changing the focus? Who knew?
I certainly didn't. But as soon as the tech showed it to me, showed me what I'd done, I could see it clear as day. The test pattern went from blue to cyan and back again as you twiddled. I don't recall whether the change was caused by the manual lens focus ring, or if it was the electrostatic focus adjuster that was doing it. But it was at least one or both of those things that caused the problem.
Quote:
take along a video calibration disc (I've got the "Video Essentials" DVD)
You heretic. Avia all the way.
Hey. Speaking of video calibration. One of the things that I'd always found difficult was getting decent test patterns up on the HDTV input. The DVD input was easy, of course, but getting an HD test pattern involved the computer. And the thing about the computer is that its scan rate and screen positioning are slightly different than my HDTV receiver, so I can't necessarily trust it.
But... Since you've got the HD DirecTivo you can do something. I discovered this myself and I'm very happy I did...
Every once in a while, HDNET runs a test pattern suite. Usually early in the morning. Do a title search for "HDNet Test Pattern". Save that puppydog in your HD-Tivo and you've got HD test patterns for life. They've got an overscan chart, a convergence grid, color bars, it's all there. Enjoy.
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#247516 - 26/01/2005 18:27
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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A timely discussion about 1080i vs 720p vs 1080p...
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#247517 - 26/01/2005 18:43
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: tfabris]
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addict
Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 498
Loc: Virginia, USA
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Oh. One other reason to consider a CRT projector (if you can find a good one) over LCD or DLP projectors, is that you don't have to replace the bulb every year. If you are about to get an LCD or DLP projector, research how much the light bulb costs and how often it needs to be replaced.
Is this really a disadvantage? After, say, 8000 hours you'll have replaced the bulb twice on a digital projector at a total cost of $500-700. Each time you replace the bulb you'll have a display that is as bright as the day you bought it.
After 8000 hours a CRT will have permanently lost much of it's brightness and will be near the end of it's usable life.
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#247518 - 26/01/2005 19:08
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: Dylan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31596
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
After 8000 hours a CRT will have permanently lost much of it's brightness and will be near the end of it's usable life.
My CRT projector is coming up on 6 years old, and I don't think it's anywhere near the end of its life. It still looks fantastic.
8000 hours is pretty good for a bulb, though. My friend Tod had to replace a bulb in his Sony projector after less than a year of ownership. And because of supply problems with the bulb, he was without a television for something like two months.
I'm just saying, be careful about bulbs, that's all.
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#247519 - 26/01/2005 19:51
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
I'm just saying, be careful about bulbs, that's all.
Or, just buy a spare bulb when you buy the set. When the original bulb eventually burns out, you'll have your replacement in hand and can order another one at your leisure.
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#247520 - 26/01/2005 20:13
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: DWallach]
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addict
Registered: 23/12/2002
Posts: 652
Loc: Winston Salem, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm just saying, be careful about bulbs, that's all.
Or, just buy a spare bulb when you buy the set.
Or wait and hope they come down in price (but not wane in availability).
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#247521 - 26/01/2005 20:25
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Go look at them in person.
I did give it a quick glance yesterday, and plan to bring my Powerbook in tow to test the DVI input and some other aspects of it either today or tomorrow. Anyone know any good HDTV clips in a computer file format?
Quote:
If you talk, chew, move your head or eyes while watching, you will see red, green and blue shifts all over the image.
Samsing seems to have addressed that with this product line at least from my 5 minutes watching yesterday. I knew about that effect and the rainbow issue, but I really couldn't see it much on units that had that issue. Since this one has a DLP chip that tries to address it, I didn't notice anything at all.
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#247522 - 26/01/2005 20:31
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2003
Posts: 500
Loc: Colorado, N.A.
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... 1280x720p is a valid HDTV resolution, and is sometimes preferred to 1920x1080i due to motion issues with interlacing.
Some convert 1080i/p to 720p and others go the other way, but I think it's the 1920 lines that most displays can't render natively. But here are a couple.
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-- DLF
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#247523 - 27/01/2005 04:24
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Quote:
If you talk, chew, move your head or eyes while watching, you will see red, green and blue shifts all over the image.
This is because the DLP units use a spinning color filter. They render every frame three times. Once for each color on the wheel, just as the correct color happens to be in the right position. Persistance of vision makes it all merge together except, when the eye moves and the C's, Y's and M's fail to hit the same cones and rods. I guess you could call that "temproal mis-convergence"
As a process it seems to work but "moving parts"... (and yes I am choosing to ignore the million or so little mirrors on the DLP itself)
Boy, I do wish Plazma had the legs to out last all the others.
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Glenn
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#247524 - 27/01/2005 11:24
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: gbeer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
Boy, I do wish Plazma had the legs to out last all the others.
Three big issues I have with any plasma display:
1. Cost. Plasma cost is insanly high above any other HDTV tech for the screen size. Sure, you get a smaller unit, but anymore that gap is closing quickly, and the increase in price isn't worth it.
2. Burn in. Being that I can't stand widescreen stretching of 4:3 content, I'd have issues with burn in quickly on a plasma.
3. Afraid of heights. Most plasmas still do not work well at high altitudes. The problem is painfully obvious in any consumer store here in Colorado. Walk into the plasma section, turn down any noise in the area, and you get a not so plesant buzz. Put one of those units in a house, and you have a buzz that cannot be covered up without raising sound volume of the content to police attracting levels. Why retailers even bother stocking plasma units with this problem here is beyond me, since almost all get returned when the issue starts up after a few days of operation.
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#247525 - 27/01/2005 12:35
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: hybrid8]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/03/2000
Posts: 12338
Loc: Sterling, VA
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Quote:
3LCD rear projection provided by far the best images I have ever seen on any display.
Is it always called 3LCD? I'm just trying to figure out whether that's what I have or not. I just call it LCD rear projection.
Whatever you end up with, Tom, do you promise not to take the This Old House approach? Their idea of the ideal media room is to put a 42" LCD over a fireplace mantle. I never understand this philosophy. It can't be good for your neck.
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Matt
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#247526 - 27/01/2005 13:37
Re: HDTV Shopping
[Re: drakino]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Quote:
Plasma cost is insanly high above any other HDTV tech for the screen size.
Except for big LCD panels. I think Sharp wants $6000 for their 45" LCD panel. Of course, it's 1080p, and won't have the high-altitude or burn-in issues of a plasma, but that's almost twice the cost of a 45" plasma.
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