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#259522 - 01/07/2005 15:10 RC Helicopters: where to start?
CrackersMcCheese
pooh-bah

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
Anyone on here into flying model helicopters? I know PCA dabbles - maybe he can help. I want to give it a try but haven't a clue where to begin. Any paerticular models make good 'learning vehicles'? Can you still buy the handset that you could plug into the PC to practice?

Any advice would be great!

Thanks.

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#259523 - 01/07/2005 15:22 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Can you still buy the handset that you could plug into the PC to practice?

Absolutely, that's a very popular thing these days, in fact from my understanding it's almost mandatory if you want to learn how to "not crash" in a nondestructive way.

(I don't fly RC, but I've got friends who do copters.)

I seem to recall that there are interfaces which allow you to plug your real-life controller into your PC and run the simulator, so that you're practicing on your actual real control panel.
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#259524 - 01/07/2005 15:54 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
mlord
carpal tunnel

Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14493
Loc: Canada
Somebody local here was selling a pair of RC choppers quite cheap. Dunno if they're still available or not, but there was a gas-powered one plus one of those baby dragonfly ones (with the simulator attachment).

Cheers

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#259525 - 01/07/2005 16:16 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
Have you looked at training gear setups for the helicopter. I have no experience other than watching but it looks pretty hard to wreck one that aparatus attatched.
_________________________

Matt

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#259526 - 01/07/2005 18:02 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: msaeger]
CrackersMcCheese
pooh-bah

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
Could you find out more about that Tony? No I've not really looked at training stuff - its just an idea I came up with this morning

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#259527 - 01/07/2005 18:13 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
ricin
veteran

Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
A RC flight simulator would probably be a good way to start.
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MkII/080000565
MkIIa/010101253
ricin.us

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#259528 - 01/07/2005 18:15 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
msaeger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 23/09/2000
Posts: 3608
Loc: Minnetonka, MN
Here is what I am talking about.
_________________________

Matt

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#259529 - 02/07/2005 00:00 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
gbeer
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
One observation about learning to fly choppers is that you will own at least two. The one you learn to fly and the one you wind up flying.

I don't think it's possible to learn without trashing the first one, many times. They are a bit like cars in a way, once the frame is tweaked, they just don't drive right. You can learn to compensate for it, but it's not the same as flying one that never been bent.

As to which one, it needs to be one for which you can readly get spare parts. It helps a lot if the local hobby shop is into it and keeps a ready supply of the commonly damaged parts on hand.

Building: This is where you can help your self a lot. Making sure everything goes together squarely, is not warped, is well balanced, and that all moving parts work evenly and smoothly will help a lot. Make sure all the linkages that should be equal length are actually equal. A set of dial or digital calipers can help with that. For instance a 90 belcrank that is not square to the linkages when it's in the neutral position will generate unequal throughs.
Basically be meticlulous.

The simulator will help a lot. Early in my learning I had done a series of up forward a few feet stop rotate and return. I finally worked enough nerve up to try to reverse course without first halting. I was completly shocked (shouldnt' have been) when after using the tail rotor to spin the chopper 180 deg. that it kept going away from me. Tail first no less. Don't expect your chopper to match the moves of the one on screen. the dynamics will be far different.

Stable hovering is an advanced skill. You will have a lot more fun if you can get someone to teach you how to get off the ground and into forward flight, then back to the ground in one peice.

Oh yes, having an experienced mentor is important. WIth determination and a deep pocket you can learn by yourself. A good mentor will help by inspecting and test flying your new chopper. Nomatter how careful your build, adjustments will have to be made. A novice just can't recognize the difference between the problems that can be adjusted away and those that just require practice to master. Better to learn flying on a bird that's been sqared away by an experienced flyer.
_________________________
Glenn

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#259530 - 02/07/2005 03:01 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
pca
old hand

Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
Ah, good timing. I've just been outside flying my new helicopter, more or less. I haven't crashed it yet, so I guess it counts as flying.

The thing you have to remember is that RC helicopters are perhaps the most complicated thing to fly you'll ever come across. More complicated than a real helicopter, in fact, and for the reason that you're not in the thing. This means your perspective of the control inputs changes with the helicopter's orientation, ie when it's coming towards you left is the opposite direction to when it's going away.

This is true of all remote piloted vehicles, of course, but helicopters are the worst because they are inherently more complex to control, and you have more things to do all at the same time. The reflexes need to be automatic, if you think about it you run into problems, and occasionally bystanders

There are several ways to start, all with pros and cons. You can certainly use a simulator, which if you have not tried radio control before is a fairly good idea. There are a couple of free ones, the best known of which is FMS. It's quite basic, but has good physics underlying it and can teach you quite a lot. You can use it with a normal joystick, or can plug in a modern RC transmitter with the appropriate interface lead. This is probably the better option.

A much, much better simulator is Reflex XTR. This one is truly amazing, and really pretty to watch. It comes with a USB to TX lead, and is only supposed to be used with the TX, although it can be hacked to work with a joystick. You could probably learn everything apart from the things you can only pick up from real hardware with this program.

Another way, at least to learn about the orientation issue with helicopters, is to get a cheap RC car or plane! Something tough and easy to use. Use it for a while, learn the left/right, forward/backward swapping around by heart, then move onto something more interesting. This allows you to get the reflexes engrained at low cost.

You can also bite the bullet and just start with a cheap heli and work your way up as you get better and bits snap off. There are a lot of very cheap, but in many cases fairly reasonable helicopters available from Ebay. The Ikarus Piccolo was the original mass-market electric micro helicopter model, but to be honest it's nowhere near as good as a lot of the third and forth generation knockoffs from the far east. The E-sky honeybee ones, for instance, are much better.

The cheap micro helis come complete with transmitter, batteries, gyro, receiver, servos, batteries, and so on, for about £100 up. They certainly fly, but to be honest in some ways are not the best thing to learn with. The problem is that the bigger a helicopter the less twitchy it is. That doesn't mean stable, necessarily, but the bigger ones don't react as violently to wind, control inputs, and vibration. This is because they are heavier, which damps them down a lot, and also have much more gyroscopic stability from the larger rotor blades.

The small cheap micro helis are usually fixed pitch, which is very simple but limited. A better one will be fully collective pitch, ie you change the pitch of the main blades to increase or decrease lift rather than the speed. This adds vastly more controllability, including the possibility of inverted flight, at the expense of complexity. The fixed pitch ones are very tough, and when you fly them into something they just pop apart, rather than break.

Remember, when learning, you WILL crash. Repeatedly. Get used to the idea, and budget for spares.

If you're thinking of something bigger, you have to decide between electric or glow fuel. The glow fuel ones have a lower size of around a 90cm rotor diameter and about 1.5kg weight, and go up to something pretty big. They have a very high power to weight ratio, but usually fairly limited fuel capacity which equates to about 10-15 minutes run time. They are noisy, produce a lot of smoke, and emit oil which needs to be cleaned up after every flight. They can only really be used outdoors, but will handle a lot of wind.

Electric ones don't have the power to weight ratio of the glow fuel ones unless you want to spend a LOT of money, but have many advantages otherwise. The run time can exceed half an hour on the bigger ones, they tend to be very quiet, need little maintainance except for repairs, and can just be switched on and flown. They're a lot cheaper to run, as well, since glow fuel is getting very pricey. A gallon of 20% nitromethane mix is about £25, and in a .30 size glow fuel helicopter would probably give about 10-20 flights. A lithium polymer battery for a medium size electric helicopter costs between £25 and £50 and will give several hundred charge cycles if handled properly, and the running cost is a little power to charge it. On the other hand, a good LiPo charger is about £100, so you have to factor that in.

Anything other than a ready to fly micro helicopter is unlikely to come with any radio gear, so you will have to get that separately. It can add up to quite a lot of money, but can be used in different models so should be looked at as an investment.

OK, so on to specifics. As I said, if you go for a micro heli, you can get up and running for about £100 to £140. This will certainly allow you to fly, but will take a lot of practice. On the up side, if you can fly one of the micros well you'll have no problem with anything larger. This is about the cheapest option.

Going up in size, a couple of good electric helicopter kits are the T-rex 450x and the ARK X400. They were both designed by the same guy in taiwan, they both fly very well, are completely aerobatic capable, and can be set up to be quite stable for beginners. I have an X400, and I think it's pretty well designed. There are loads of upgrades and mods available for both, and a lot of the parts are interchangable. Spares are very cheap, although the X400 bits are slightly cheaper than the 450X. You can buy both as fully assembled models, kits of parts, or deals with a motor and speed controller included. This last isn't ideal, as the speed controller that comes with them, while functional, is rather basic and I can't really recommend it.

For glow fuel ones, the Raptor 30 is a very good one. You can get it with or without engine. The 50 and 60 sized version are the same, but larger and with bigger more powerful engines.

In addition to the model itself, you will require:

Radio transmitter
Radio receiver
Motor or engine (if not included in the kit)
Speed controller (for electric)
RX battery (for glow fuel) or flight battery (for electric)
4-5 servos
Tail gyro
Charger

For radios, there are many available, but I would recommend the Futaba FF9. It is available for about £270, and will cope with pretty much any model you're ever likely to get. It's very programmable, and should last for many years.

A good receiver is the Hitec Electron 6. It's small enough to use in one of the smaller electric helis, has very good range, far outside what you'll ever need, and is dual conversion hence very interference-robust. You will also need a channel crystal for it, for about £8. The receiver is about £30.

If you go for either the trex or the ark, a good basic brushless motor is the Align 400L. You can get it for about £40. A suitable speed controller is either the Castle Creations Phoenix 25 for about £50 or the Hyperium Titan 20 for £35. A good battery Thunder Power Pro Lite 3-cell 2100 mAh LiPo pack. This is capable of a continuous 25 amp discharge rate, and is one of the lightest pack of similar capacity, although not the cheapest. You will need at least an 1800mAh 10C (ie 18 A) 3 cell pack for either of the two helis I've mentioned.

If you're using lithium batteries, you MUST have a suitable charger. The failure mode of an improperly or over charged LiPo is spectacular, involving much smoke, flame, and noise. A good charger will keep the risk to an acceptable level. I have a Great Planes Triton charger and can recommend it. It will charge pretty much anything, and will cost about £100.

If you go for either the Trex or Ark, you'll need three Hitec HS55 servos and one HS50 (for the tail rotor). The raptor would need larger servos. A very good gyro suitable for either the electric or glow fuel ones is the CSM SL560. It's about £100 and is a heading lock unit, which means that, properly set up, it will keep the tail pointing in the same direction more or less regardless of wind. This makes life a LOT easier, especially when learning.

In addition to the above, for a glow fuel heli you will need fuel (£25), an electric starter (£30), a battery for it (£15), a couple of spare glow plugs (£5 each), and cleaning products.

Buy spares. At a minimum you need main blades, tail blades, tail drive belt, main gear, and tail boom. These are the things that are most likely to get damaged in a crash. For the X400 or the 450X, the cheapest way to get a comprehensive set of spares is to buy another mechanics kit! You have a complete spare helicopter ready, and you can always build it up as another model for emergencies.

I hope this is of some use.

pca
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...

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#259531 - 02/07/2005 04:03 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: pca]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Patrick, what are those thingies perpendicular to the main rotor blades? Real things don't have them, do they?
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Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#259532 - 02/07/2005 04:03 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: pca]
RobotCaleb
pooh-bah

Registered: 15/01/2002
Posts: 1866
Loc: Austin
I think my brain just exploded.

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#259533 - 02/07/2005 04:04 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: RobotCaleb]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Quote:
I think my brain just exploded.

Wrong charger
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#259534 - 02/07/2005 07:27 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: bonzi]
Roger
carpal tunnel

Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
Quote:
Real things don't have them, do they?


I dunno what they are, but real 2-bladed helicopters sometimes have something that looks similar. See, for example, this picture of a Huey.
_________________________
-- roger

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#259535 - 02/07/2005 07:34 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
andym
carpal tunnel

Registered: 17/01/2002
Posts: 3996
Loc: Manchester UK
Cris has an RC helicopter, and I think he's thinking of selling. I think it's a good one, he's away this weekend so hopefully he'll reply when he gets back.
_________________________
Cheers,

Andy M

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#259536 - 02/07/2005 07:34 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: bonzi]
pca
old hand

Registered: 20/07/1999
Posts: 1102
Loc: UK
It's called a flybar. It's used as a combination torque amplifier and damper for the pitch control system of the main blades. See here for a good article on it.

Pca
_________________________
Experience is what you get just after it would have helped...

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#259537 - 02/07/2005 09:07 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: pca]
bonzi
pooh-bah

Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
Thanks, excellent article. I pulled the whole site for reading tomorrow in the plane.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos Q#5196 MkII #080000376, 18GB green MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue

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#259538 - 02/07/2005 09:57 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
Andy is right!

I have a full Raptor 30 setup for sale at the moment, I also have a copy of RealFlight to train on.

I don't have a full spec list with me at the moment, but the basics are Futaba FF9, Futaba GY401 Gyro, Raptor 30 V2, OS 32 engine, top spec exhaust and full flight gear.

It's never had a major crash, just the one light touch, it's fully setup and with loads of spares, inc a full and unused crash kit.

The only reason I'm selling is that I don't have the time to fly anymore, I never got beyond a steady hover and moving it around. I'm open to offers, there must be well over £1000 worth of stuff if bought new (the FF9 is £600 I think).

Let me know if you are interested, it's a top setup!

Cheers

Cris.

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#259539 - 02/07/2005 12:09 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: pca]
CrackersMcCheese
pooh-bah

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
Wow Patrick, thanks for all that. I'll be taking a very good read, cheers!

Cris, as Patrick says, I'll have a few crashes. I'm not sure if I want to buy an expensive model that I'll just wreck in a week Give me the rest of the weekend to research and I'll get back to you?

Edit: Unless the transmitter was available seperatley?


Edited by Phil. (02/07/2005 14:14)

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#259540 - 02/07/2005 12:11 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: pca]
CrackersMcCheese
pooh-bah

Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2489
Oh, something else I wanted to ask. Eventually I'd like to take high quality photos from the helicopter by strapping on a digital camera. Can they support the weight, and can flight be stable enough to provide good results?

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#259541 - 02/07/2005 20:36 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: CrackersMcCheese]
Cris
pooh-bah

Registered: 06/02/2002
Posts: 1904
Loc: Leeds, UK
You will find the Raptor 30 V2 is just about the best thing to learn on, the parts are cheap and are available all over the place.

The expensive parts like the engine, gyro and exhaust won't be damaged in most crashes, so it doesn't matter if you have the best right from the start.

When you are learning you may go through a few set of cheap blades and a few bits of plastic, but most crashes are low level and only look messy, you only get the right offs later on when you start doing loops.

You need to learn with someone who knows what they are doing, these things are not toys, to set them up properly you need to play with the engine at full speed, some will argue differently, but the last thing you need is the engine cutting out at 3/4 revs, so ground tests are needed, and let me tell you that can be very scary even with loading balls on the rotor head.

I have never crashed my heli, I took it slow and took small steps, having a go on the sim before trying in the real world. The only crash was by my more experienced "friend" who flies mode 1 and not mode 2 like me.

It's a great hobby if you have the time to learn, you will need a good year or so to get a good hover and basic moves, rushing it will lead to expensive mistakes, the average started crash costs in around £80ish.

I am off on my hols for the next few weeks, I had planned to ebay it all on my return, as one lot I'm not going to split it, if you are interested let me know nearer the time.

Edit - Yep they will take the weight of a camera, a 30 size can lift a camera, pan and tilt stuff and video downlink stuff with no problems, I had video stuff on mine until just a few weeks ago.

Cheers

Cris.


Edited by Cris (02/07/2005 20:38)

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#259542 - 03/07/2005 04:06 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: bonzi]
TigerJimmy
old hand

Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
Not to hijack this thread (which is awesome!), but how do you do this? I've looked for programs that could grab an entire site but I've never been able to get one to work.

Thanks in advance,

Jim

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#259543 - 03/07/2005 04:57 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: TigerJimmy]
tfabris
carpal tunnel

Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31597
Loc: Seattle, WA
I thought that was built-in to internet explorer these days. Can't you just click on it and select "Make Available Offline"?
_________________________
Tony Fabris

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#259544 - 03/07/2005 06:02 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: tfabris]
TigerJimmy
old hand

Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
Does that download the entire "tree" of pages below a home page? That's what I want to do, to avoid manually navigating to each page on a site. I want to grab the whole thing.

Thanks, it would be great if there is a way to do this.

Best,

Jim

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#259545 - 03/07/2005 06:16 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: TigerJimmy]
mtempsch
pooh-bah

Registered: 02/06/2000
Posts: 1996
Loc: Gothenburg, Sweden
Quote:
Does that download the entire "tree" of pages below a home page? That's what I want to do, to avoid manually navigating to each page on a site. I want to grab the whole
thing.



In IE, after checking the tickbox Make available offline, click the Customize button and you'll find hat you can state how many "levels" it should recurse down and grab, and if it should follow offsite links or not.
_________________________
/Michael

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#259546 - 03/07/2005 11:36 Re: RC Helicopters: where to start? [Re: TigerJimmy]
tman
carpal tunnel

Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
Just be aware that a lot of administrators don't like you doing this if the site is particularly large or database driven since you'll be sucking up resources for a long time.

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