#259905 - 07/07/2005 08:32
Here we go again.. London this time..
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addict
Registered: 08/08/2001
Posts: 452
Loc: NZ
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Edited by JaBZ (07/07/2005 08:33)
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#259906 - 07/07/2005 08:34
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: JaBZ]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Damn.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#259907 - 07/07/2005 09:52
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: JaBZ]
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veteran
Registered: 21/03/2002
Posts: 1424
Loc: MA but Irish born
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I doubt the IRA. While things are not moving perfectly along with that peace process, if it had been the IRA or a splinter group we'd have heard about it already they tend not to be shy about it. Either way 
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#259908 - 07/07/2005 10:45
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: Phoenix42]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/04/2000
Posts: 3810
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Al Qaeda is hardly shy about their intentions, either, once the deed is done.
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#259909 - 07/07/2005 10:56
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
The BBC has located an Islamist website that has published a 200-word statement issued by an organisation saying it carried out the London bombings.
The organisation calls itself the Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda [literally the base] of Jihad Organisation in Europe.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm
Thankfully a small scale attack compared to 9/11, and the sort of thing we've been living with for 25 years, up until the IRA ceasefire. No doubt we'll have to get used to this, as long as evil men can influence stupid people to do their bidding with religious diatribe. In the mean time I guess we can go wipe out another tin pot dictatorship in revenge.
Rob
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#259910 - 07/07/2005 11:15
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: rob]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 27/02/2004
Posts: 1919
Loc: London
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Well said Rob, I'm a muslim born and lived in London all my life (through all the IRA stuff), makes me sick to think some muppet somewhere has orchestrated this. Islamaphobia was just bedginning to recede again, thanks a frigging lot.
Obviously very sad for all the victims and their families too.
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#259911 - 07/07/2005 12:34
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
Thankfully a small scale attack compared to 9/11
It's not any smaller to those killed or injured and their friends and family.
I hope everyone here is unaffected, since I can't reasonably hope that no one at all was.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#259912 - 07/07/2005 13:14
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
I hope everyone here is unaffected
I just hope that Brian (bmihulka) is OK this morning -- we met for a couple of beers last night, and he was travelling to Holland today.
I think his journey to the Harwich ferry would have taken him through Edgeware Rd and Liverpool St this morning. I sincerely hope that he didn't get caught up in this.
I believe that he's planning on meeting up with Julf and the others in Amsterdam this evening.
_________________________
-- roger
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#259913 - 07/07/2005 13:53
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: DWallach]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Al Qaeda is hardly shy about their intentions, either, once the deed is done.
And moreso that they are not shy about their intentions *before* the deed is done. Just that they leave out critical details about time (how much coincidence to coincide with G8 and day after London Olympics announcement?) and place/s.
Love or hate them, they have tended to follow through despite setbacks/losses. The supply of people willing to perform these kinds of acts just does not seem to be diminishing.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#259914 - 07/07/2005 14:12
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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It's good to hear that you're not caught up in this, Roger. I hope Brian is OK. Someone keep us posted if possible.
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#259915 - 07/07/2005 14:30
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 15/08/2000
Posts: 4859
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Agreed!!!
Also, do you have any recommendations or do you think this will cause any trouble for people going to the meet? I am not personally, but I just thought I would ask for those that may be planning on travelling.
_________________________
Paul Grzelak
200GB with 48MB RAM, Illuminated Buttons and Digital Outputs
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#259916 - 07/07/2005 15:31
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
Al Qaeda is hardly shy about their intentions, either, once the deed is done.
Love or hate them, they have tended to follow through despite setbacks/losses. The supply of people willing to perform these kinds of acts just does not seem to be diminishing.
I know of no one who loves them, thankfully. The thing is, for what they've been doing it doesn't seem like they need that many "willing followers".
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#259917 - 07/07/2005 17:09
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
I know of no one who loves them, thankfully. The thing is, for what they've been doing it doesn't seem like they need that many "willing followers".
I don't (think) I know anybody, either, but life is full of surprises. I once worked side-by-side with a guy for 6 months (on a psych ward, no less) before discovering that he spent his evenings recruiting for the KKK. Who knows what lies in the hearts of BBS lurkers?
I guess more to the point, I intentionally made that allowance because there definitely people out there who are feeling satisfaction over today's bloody events, and they all don't have some insane world view (as often characterized by the media and our politicians) but have one that at least has internal (and maybe external) consistency. I wonder, if the state of Texas was being invaded by hordes looking to imprison the last Christians on planet earth, might we expect JeffS to wrap himself in dynamite and mingle among the invaders? It is an absurd question, but I use it to consider how some of these suicidal martyrs see themselves.
Anyhow, no shortage of suicidal martyrs, and they are rational enough to scheme, to plan in detail and to execute in a very determined way. And terrorists -- or so-called terrorists if that is your leaning -- always have the upper hand from the standpoint of what they need to do to "win".
Grumble.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#259919 - 07/07/2005 17:29
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/01/2002
Posts: 3937
Loc: Providence, RI
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Quote:
Quote:
I know of no one who loves them, thankfully. The thing is, for what they've been doing it doesn't seem like they need that many "willing followers".
I don't (think) I know anybody, either, but life is full of surprises. I once worked side-by-side with a guy for 6 months (on a psych ward, no less) before discovering that he spent his evenings recruiting for the KKK. Who knows what lies in the hearts of BBS lurkers?
I guess more to the point, I intentionally made that allowance because there definitely people out there who are feeling satisfaction over today's bloody events, and they all don't have some insane world view
I don't believe you.
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#259920 - 07/07/2005 17:31
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Well, there's a major difference between the American Revolution and the Al-Qaeda attacks. The American revolutionaries attacked the British military and consumable properties. As far as I know, they never attacked civilians or destroyed personal property, at least with intent.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#259921 - 07/07/2005 17:31
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
I hope everyone here is unaffected, since I can't reasonably hope that no one at all was.
Everybody okay over here. All my family were late to work today luckily so were all still at home when it happened. Tracked down all my friends that work in the area as well.
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#259922 - 07/07/2005 17:43
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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Quote:
Well, there's a major difference between the American Revolution and the Al-Qaeda attacks. The American revolutionaries attacked the British military and consumable properties. As far as I know, they never attacked civilians or destroyed personal property, at least with intent.
True. I think that Al-Qaeda doesn't see civillians as innocent, but I'm not going to try to hard to get in their heads.
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#259923 - 07/07/2005 17:47
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Well, there's a major difference between the American Revolution and the Al-Qaeda attacks. The American revolutionaries attacked the British military and consumable properties. As far as I know, they never attacked civilians or destroyed personal property, at least with intent.
I agree re: major difference. To me, though, it isn't a matter of how we perceive these people -- how we make that comparison -- as much as how *they* perceive themselves. I'm betting they would see the comparison differently.
Throughout history "oppressed/threatened minorities" have turned to terror tactics. Some of them get viewed less harshly, I think, in the glow of history (like they ultimately prevailed and got to write some of the history). Nobody I personally know is going to have a positive view of nasty people who blow innocent people apart, whatever their grievances, but there certainly other people out there who hang their pictures on the wall and honor them. I just can't make myself call them things like "crazed". I think that only helps us to ignore what really makes these folks tick.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#259924 - 07/07/2005 17:57
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: Daria]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
I don't believe you.
You are not obliged to believe me.
I guess I would separate "selfish","amoral", "sociopathic" and some other terms from "insane", but I think psychiatrists dicker about this all the time. I think "insane" generally means not in touch with reality (and maybe hearing voices of people who don't excist, for example), but then you get into the whole reality thing.
I think my main point is that reducing all of theis to "insane" or "crazy" doesn't get us anywhere -- fighting an asymmetric war against ununiformed enemy has generally been a losing proposition short of complete incineration of all involved territories -- doesn't help us figure out what is going on or how to deal with it.
Almost anything I've ever argued is derivative. In this case I think I'd need to volunteer the footnote to Mike "Anonymous" Scheuer's _Imperial Hubris_.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#259925 - 07/07/2005 18:11
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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I think the point here is that there is some amount of value in recognizing that these individuals are responding to something in a consistent way. Not that it is right or OK or even justifiable, but that there is a cause (or causes) for their actions. It’s scary to think that there are beliefs and events that would cause someone to think that blowing up civilians is just and appropriate, but such things exist. Even in Jim’s example above of a Texas invasion in search of Christians, I cannot imagine being driven to the extremes that these people have gone to. There is deep culture, religions, pain, and manipulation behind these attacks- I can’t even comprehend what these must be to cause these actions. But one thing is certain- insane people cannot plan these attacks. They were intelligent (somewhat) and deliberate. Which makes them all the more frightening.
Edited by JeffS (07/07/2005 18:12)
_________________________
-Jeff
Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#259926 - 07/07/2005 18:13
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Quote:
_Imperial Hubris_
Wow, that's the second time I've read that phrase today (here's the first.)
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#259927 - 07/07/2005 18:30
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: tfabris]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 18/01/2000
Posts: 5683
Loc: London, UK
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Quote:
I hope Brian is OK. Someone keep us posted if possible.
I just heard from Brian. He's at his hotel in Holland. He's fine.
_________________________
-- roger
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#259928 - 07/07/2005 18:43
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: Roger]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
I just heard from Brian. He's at his hotel in Holland. He's fine.
Good stuff
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#259929 - 07/07/2005 18:59
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Wow, that's the second time I've read that phrase today (here's the first.)
Hayden's reference seems a little mixed up. He could lead you to think that Kaplan wrote a book by that name. I *believe* that was Scheuer quoting Kaplan from an essay in the Atlantic. Anyhow, the book I referred to -- by somebody Hayden would probably despise as a right-winger -- is this one.
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#259930 - 07/07/2005 19:01
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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Yeah I'm very well aware of that. Hayden was quoting "Anonymous" who was quoting Kaplan, and chose to attribute the quote to Kaplan, but cite the book. Confusing, but it *was* Kaplan's quote, after all.
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#259931 - 07/07/2005 19:15
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: JeffS]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
I think the point here is that there is some amount of value in recognizing that these individuals are responding to something in a consistent way. Not that it is right or OK or even justifiable, but that there is a cause (or causes) for their actions.
Well put. I mean even if you want to hate someone or even dehumanize them, not sure it helps to reduce this to "insane".
Quote:
It’s scary to think that there are beliefs and events that would cause someone to think that blowing up civilians is just and appropriate, but such things exist. Even in Jim’s example above of a Texas invasion in search of Christians, I cannot imagine being driven to the extremes that these people have gone to.
And in some subcultures, somebody might ask "What, you say you *wouldn't* blow up the children of your enemy to save your own children's lives? What kind of a man are you?"
Quote:
There is deep culture, religions, pain, and manipulation behind these attacks- I can’t even comprehend what these must be to cause these actions. But one thing is certain- insane people cannot plan these attacks. They were intelligent (somewhat) and deliberate. Which makes them all the more frightening.
Committed, deliberate, intelligent (enough) -- willing to do things we wouldn't conceive of doing -- and devoted to a person/cause that has, at nearly every turn, told us pretty clearly how they intended to hurt us. Now, what to do with that?
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#259932 - 07/07/2005 19:18
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: tonyc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Confusing, but it *was* Kaplan's quote, after all.
Yeah, I just want to ding Hayden for style points. Plus, I think it's a bit out of Kaplan's context. I'll have to find that essay, but I think Hayden would call Kaplan a facist -- a smarter imperialist
_________________________
Jim
'Tis the exceptional fellow who lies awake at night thinking of his successes.
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#259933 - 07/07/2005 19:42
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: jimhogan]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 19/01/2002
Posts: 3584
Loc: Columbus, OH
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Quote:
I wonder, if the state of Texas was being invaded by hordes looking to imprison the last Christians on planet earth, might we expect JeffS to wrap himself in dynamite and mingle among the invaders?
Actually, knowing Jeff, he would tell them about his faith as they were capturing him. He would then do free concerts in prison and share his faith with the guards. And he'd be thankful for the unique opportunity to do so.
_________________________
~ John
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#259934 - 07/07/2005 20:00
Re: Here we go again.. London this time..
[Re: JBjorgen]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 06/10/1999
Posts: 2591
Loc: Seattle, WA, U.S.A.
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Quote:
Actually, knowing Jeff, he would tell them about his faith as they were capturing him. He would then do free concerts in prison and share his faith with the guards. And he'd be thankful for the unique opportunity to do so.
I bet, but you make me realize that my example outcome "imprison" was too mild. I guess I should have started with "enslave" and gone from there. No music allowed.
edit: to make this more relevant to what little I think I know about the motives of these bombers, perhaps I should have asked whether Jeff would sacrifice his life and take the innocent lives of invaders' children, not if these invaders appeared poised to *imprison* Jeff and his children, but if their invasion looked like it would poison Jeff's children and deny them entry into the Kingdom of Heaven (or whatever afterlife suits your fancy). I consider it bizarre, but, seriously, if you believe in some Heaven and you believed you and your children could get there....save for the nasty actions of infidels/invaders/whatever...what measures would you be obliged to take?
But I am concerned that, in my jaded gloominess, I am becoming a bit abstract. What, forty-something probably nice people were killed today? And more likely to die in the next few days? OK, so that doesn't gather anywhere near as much press attention when it happens in Baghdad, but that doesn't mean the people of London deserve this.
If anybody has an acquaintance who is a burn nurse, be nice to them. Mow their lawn. Offer to do some errands for them. Let them know how impressed you are with what they do.
Edited by jimhogan (08/07/2005 01:31)
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