#271384 - 04/12/2005 21:02
Are most British car reviews this pompous?
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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http://motoring.independent.co.uk/road_tests/article330826.eceI haven't read British reviews since I was scouring the internet for anything about the Subaru WRX (so about 5 years ago) but I don't remember coming across anything like this. Is this typical? I've heard that the British press, in general, can appear to be very "harsh" compared to US publications, but I always thought this was limited to political or tabloid publications.
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Brad B.
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#271385 - 04/12/2005 21:18
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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veteran
Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
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What's wrong with being honest?
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#271386 - 04/12/2005 21:22
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Looks fine to me.
Are you complaining about the review being "harsh" or "pompous"?
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#271387 - 04/12/2005 22:29
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: ricin]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I guess "harsh" wasn't really the right word. It just came across as very snobbish. Calling all American cars pitiful (I can think of plenty of exceptions) and implying that any country that produced the Space Shuttle isn't capable of making a car with a decent interior. The CTS may be new to the UK, but it's in its third model year now, so I don't expect it to compete against the latest German sedans despite what Cadillac's marketing team might hope for. So while taking stabs at the car is fair game, the tone of the review seemed more like a snobbish commentary on the American automobile industry than an in-depth look at a new model hitting your shores. The repair bill on the Space Shuttle is still cheaper than the one on my uncle's (pre-Ford) Jaguar! 
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Brad B.
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#271388 - 04/12/2005 22:38
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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Tbh, given the amount of stick that GM get everytime they bring a car over from the USA, you'd think that they'd either:
1) Not bother.
2) Sort out the interior & fix the handling and engine.
On the otherhand, we got the holden monaro (GM Australia) and the press loved it.
Edited by sn00p (04/12/2005 22:41)
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#271389 - 05/12/2005 02:42
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: ricin]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Quote:
What's wrong with being honest?
In the US, the media wouldn't dis any potential advertiser in that way. Not unless they have the sent of blood in their noses.
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Glenn
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#271390 - 05/12/2005 10:13
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
It just came across as very snobbish.
US cars in general aren't very highly rated here. The same used to be true of many British cars as well - but since we no longer have a mass market automotive industry that doesn't really apply any more.
Quote:
The repair bill on the Space Shuttle is still cheaper than the one on my uncle's (pre-Ford) Jaguar!
Jags are expensive to repair, but since any (non classic) Jag over 5 years old costs almost nothing to buy in the UK it doesn't matter. The price of second hand Jags in the US is absolutely astounding!
Rob
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#271392 - 05/12/2005 14:46
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Brits complaining about the US's lousy auto industry is quite a bit like, well, Brits complaining about the US's lousy space program. Maybe we'll pay attention when you have one.
At the same time, the CTS is kinda mediocre. It drives nicely as a sports sedan, but the interior is really rather cheap. Black plastic with white silkscreen and such. Not what you'd expect from Cadillac. If they'd just spent more than a nickel on the interior it'd be a pretty nice car.
The cheap shots against the US are odd, though: the Billy Ray Cyrus jab, the Space Shuttle program. I find it hard to believe, though, that he thinks it's intended to fit into the BMW 5-series, Audi A6 arena, though. It's obviously 3-series sized. Maybe on price? Not here, but maybe there.
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#271393 - 05/12/2005 15:02
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
At the same time, the CTS is kinda mediocre. It drives nicely as a sports sedan, but the interior is really rather cheap. Black plastic with white silkscreen and such. Not what you'd expect from Cadillac. If they'd just spent more than a nickel on the interior it'd be a pretty nice car.
Actually owning a Cadillac, I have to disagree there. For a $50,000+ car when new, my Fleetwood Brougham has an absolutely shameful interior. The leather seems like it's good quality, but the rest of the materials are just utter crap. The fit and finish of the interior is also in the toilet. After 9 years of the most loving care taken, bits are falling off all over.
All that said, there is nothing on the road like it and I enjoy it thoroughly.
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80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#271394 - 05/12/2005 15:14
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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My mom owneed a Cadillac for many years (an '85 or '86 Seville or deVille, can't remember which: it'd help if the name was more than one letter different), and it was nice. It wasn't cheap at all, mostly well-fitted plastic, metal, and wood. It wore over time, sure, but nothing bad. It still looked pretty good when she got rid of it. But the CTS feels like some cheap Asian import. I mean, I don't know if you've been in one, but I'm 100% serious. There are other reasons I don't like the interior, too, but they really should have thrown some money at it. I think, in the US at least, a Cadillac customer expects something a little bit classy, or at least better looking at purchase than the other brands, but it looks terrible.
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#271395 - 05/12/2005 15:55
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Just in case people haven't seen it, here's a shot of the CTS's interior from Cadillac's web site:
First, who chose that font? And, like I said, the lettering, including that on the dials, is not injection-molded or anything, it's silkscreened. And not well at that. You can see the black plastic through it where it's already started to wear off at the dealership. Speaking of the plastic, it's about the grade you'd expect to find on an alarm clock. And I didn't see one with the leather and wood upgrade. It's usually more of that pseudo-sandblasted plastic or that weird square-textured stuff.
That said, it really drives pretty well, and they offer a manual transmission in the US market.
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Bitt Faulk
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#271396 - 05/12/2005 15:56
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5914
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
I find it hard to believe, though, that he thinks it's intended to fit into the BMW 5-series, Audi A6 arena, though. It's obviously 3-series sized. Maybe on price? Not here, but maybe there.
It looks like it is similar to 3 series prices in the UK as well, the equivalent 5 series looks to be about £5k more.
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#271397 - 05/12/2005 16:58
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 434
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
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Quote:
Just in case people haven't seen it, here's a shot of the CTS's interior from Cadillac's web site:
Just a quick question is that a real photo of the interior or is that from a pre-production model? Also where are the KPH markings? I haven't really paid attention to any US cars dashboards in a bit, I thought that the KPH markings were required by law. At least I don't think I've been in a car that didn't have both, at least in the USA.
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#271398 - 05/12/2005 17:11
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: petteri]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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In the Cadillac STS, you select KpH on the computer and the needle recalibrates itself. Not sure about the smaller CTS.
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Brad B.
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#271399 - 05/12/2005 17:44
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: petteri]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Given that it's been in production for a few years, I can't see why it'd be from a pre-production model, but I suppose it's possible that it is. And even if it can recalibrate the needle to kph, it's still got that mph silkscreen.
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Bitt Faulk
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#271400 - 05/12/2005 17:47
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Maybe it doesn't have that feature then. The STS has no silkscreen so maybe that's why they can offer it.. It's been a few years since I worked at GM so I'm not as privy to all that good stuff.
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Brad B.
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#271401 - 05/12/2005 23:31
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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The other side of the "mph" you can see a very dark blur that looks like "kph", so it looks like a little disc or something rotates to switch them over.
On the older cars with digital dashes you could just pull a fuse link to switch it to kph, it's probably some fancy menu on the radio now.
Gareth
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#271402 - 05/12/2005 23:57
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Quote:
(I can think of plenty of exceptions)
Please make a list of exceptions. I think nearly all American cars are completly dreadful when compared to European and Japanese cars at the same price level. Don't just ist the "nicest" (least awful) American cars, but ones that actually compare favorably to European and/or Japanese equivalents.
I can't think of any. Maybe the Corvette. Maybe. The BMW M3 is a vastly better car in practically every respect, for about the same or even less money.
Maybe full-sized pickups, but that is simply because they are the only ones in the market. Until recently, that is. The Japanese have come out with some full-sized pickups that have gotten much better reviews than the American ones.
I won't even discuss the horrific SUV segment.
Seriously. Where are these great American cars? The new Chrysler 300? Possibly, but that isn't exactly "plenty".
Jim
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#271403 - 06/12/2005 02:38
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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The way most Americans buy a car is completely moronic and senseless. "An American car with a V6" is often the only essential criteria. This is why so many GM cars have the same crappy 200HP V6 for the past 10 years. It's exactly what the american public thinks it wants. An inefficient V6. Forget about handling. On long expanses of flat, straight highway, it's not needed. Lots of old people buy a Cadillac before they die because it's what they've been saving their whole life to get. They're buying a lifestyle, not a good car. Men put their wives and kids in SUVs because they think it's like a tank and will keep them safe. Most people I come across with an SUV don't even know how to properly put it into 4wd. That just shows you they're not using them for their utility. It's just a people-hauler for their overgrown family. Maybe I shouldn't talk. I'm back to driving an SUV everyday and I'm the only one in it. At least it was built in Japan though and gasoline is back down to $2/gallon. 
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80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#271404 - 06/12/2005 05:04
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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Quote:
Where are these great American cars?
American cars are entirely different than european or asian cars, not necessarily great, but different. I'd say that a lot more American cars than imports have "character". There is no import competition (at least sold in the US) for the Ford Mustang, the Chrysler 300, the Jeep Wrangler, the Dodge Viper, a Hummer or a full size GM or Ford pickup. If your in the market for any of those vehicles, odds are you aren't even looking at the imports.
Quote:
Maybe the Corvette. Maybe. The BMW M3 is a vastly better car in practically every respect, for about the same or even less money.
The Vette and the M3 aren't even in the same class. The M3 is a nice handling, fast sedan with very little flash. At a glance you can't tell it from any other 3 series beamer or a lot of other boring looking sedans. A vette is all about flash, it is the car you buy during your midlife crisis when you look around and realize that everyone else in your social class is driving a BMW.
-Mike
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#271405 - 06/12/2005 07:19
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: mcomb]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Quote:
The Vette and the M3 aren't even in the same class.
Absolutely - the M3 is a really good car for Scottish roads, in sneakily understated bodykit, while the Vette is a shockingly poor handling, brash, annoying thing that sounds quite nice and is probably quite fun on straight, wide roads.
Horses for courses
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#271406 - 06/12/2005 09:18
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Men put their wives and kids in SUVs because they think it's like a tank and will keep them safe. Most people I come across with an SUV don't even know how to properly put it into 4wd. That just shows you they're not using them for their utility. It's just a people-hauler for their overgrown family.
We get a similar thing here. You see lots of people with an absolutely pristine land/range rover which has never seen mud in it's life and a single kid all the way in the back for the school run.
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#271407 - 06/12/2005 10:13
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
while the Vette is a shockingly poor handling
Are you guys getting the 84 Vette over there??? The new Z06 is going head to head with Ferraris in publications here, with instrumented tests, and is in the same leage (not to mention the 1/3 cost). You can drive the thing in the winter and people can actually afford to race the things.
Kind of reminds me of how the Lotus Eclipse was legendary for being the best handleing car in the world. Until some magazines actually started hooking instrumentation upto it and found this wasn't the case at all.
The Range Rover was supposed to be great and off roading too... but until very recently that wasn't the case. And that credit only goes to either BMW or Ford.
And don't discount whole segments simply because European or Japanese makers don't produce them. I simply could not function in my career without my diesel pickup. To say our pickups don't count because nobody else is tying to make them would disqualify the M3/M5 because no US car maker has tried anything like the M3/M5.
Likewise, if I wanted a RWD, 300hp coupe for $25, I'm looking at a Ford Mustang GT or a Dodge Charger if I want a sedan. The only thing close would be a Nissan 350Z but the heritage of a 350 does't stack up to a Mustang.
And I know it's fashionable to hate SUVs, but we don't have tiny roads here. I don't own one because I don't like the rough ride or bad fuel economy, but the Pacifica cross-over we have has been a Godsend raising our baby and going on trips out of town.
I can think of plenty of bad cars in the US, but the thing is THEY SELL. Can you expect Ford to pull the Mercury Grand Marquis off of the road when it comprises of a majority of the entire company's sales? Just because you or I might not like a car, we can't expect that to be reason enough for a company to pull the plug on a certain model. The people buying these cars have plenty of other options but still choose their Taurus. We can talk about how dumb our 45 year old, married mother of 3 is for chosing interior square footage and comfort over razor sharp handling and DVD navigation, but isn't that being snobby?
I chose a Subaru WRX because I wanted an AWD sedan with at least 200hp. It was my only option. But I can't blame the whole country for not wanting the same thing. In fact, I intentionally picked the car because I knew there wouldn't be many of them on the road.
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (06/12/2005 10:42)
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#271408 - 06/12/2005 10:38
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: robricc]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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I agree that most SUV owners don’t ever use their SUV’s as SUV’s however I'm the 1% that does. I live on a farm and use my SUV to its fullest. It sure is nice when the wheels start spinning and you just flick it in 4WD and go, no worries.
I also live up north and was in a bad snow/ice storm over Thanksgiving. The 4WD sure does help keep you from spinning out. However a lot of people think “I have an SUV I don’t need to slow down and can stop on a dime.” I saw several of those people in the ditch.
I can see why people give SUV’s, and their owners, a bad rap but some people do need them and use them as intended.
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#271409 - 06/12/2005 10:40
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Don't remember which versions I drove actually - I keep taking cars which are supposed to be good on track days, and the only ones I have found that have good handling (as in really good handling) are the Evos, Imprezas, Caterhams/Westfields, a Skyline GTR and some of the Porsches (if you like over twitchy good handling)
Nothing else cornered well enough - and I'm including a few Ferraris, BMWs, Mercedes SLK, a Holden (handled badly but was damn good fun and stupidly powerful) a couple of different Corvettes and some others.
As I say, horses for courses - I would love Subaru to make a slightly less plasticky interior, and it would be good to have a higher top speed on the track, but as long as I can get 0-60mph in 5.2 seconds and go round roundabouts at 70mph fully sideways I'm pretty happy, whereas others may like something which looks a bit nicer but maybe doesn't perform as well.
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#271410 - 06/12/2005 10:43
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Sorry, I edited my post (adding quite a bit) while you wrote yours..
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (06/12/2005 10:43)
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Brad B.
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#271411 - 06/12/2005 11:16
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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We own two Ford cars- I have a Mustang that I bought used and my wife drives a Ford Escape. The mustang is a V6 that is very underpowered, but still a lot of fun to drive. I got a great deal on it (<$10,000 w/ <20,000 miles) and have loved owning it, even if I would have preferred the V8 model. I haven't regretted the purchase. Now the Escape has been a wonderful car. I'm not sure it's a "proper" SUV- it is built like a car more than a typical SUV. It's fun to drive- definitely with enough power, and the utility is great. We have hauled people and music equipment everywhere in the thing. I can't image anything that would have provided as fun a driving experience and still offered the utility that the Escape does. After having owned one, I'm a huge fan. We bought ours before they started making the hybrids, but I'm definitely intersted in checking those out . . .
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Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#271412 - 06/12/2005 13:48
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
the heritage of a 350 does't stack up to a Mustang
True. The 350Z doesn't have to look back on the Mustang II, the remarkably underpowered so-called muscle cars of the early 80s, the aging technology (it still has a live rear axle). Basically what you're saying is that you wish you could get a '67 Mustang, but since that's not really available, you can get something that has the same name plastered on it.
At least they haven't been complete crap for the last five years or so.
And the Mustangs only have five years more history than the Datsun/Nissan Z-car series.
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#271413 - 06/12/2005 18:58
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
Are you guys getting the 84 Vette over there??? The new Z06 is going head to head with Ferraris in publications here, with instrumented tests, and is in the same leage (not to mention the 1/3 cost). You can drive the thing in the winter and people can actually afford to race the things.
I remember the guys from Car&Driver racing a Vette (I think this was in the days of the 4th generation one) against a Carrera on some tiny twisty roads and on a track (I think they used some manufacturer's proving grounds or something like that) - Corvette won.
Quote:
I simply could not function in my career without my diesel pickup.
Interesting, people who need to haul a lot of cargo here usually choose vans of some kind, not open-bed pickups. Almost every manufactuter makes them in three or four sizes, from a sub-compact without back seats to 3-ton almost-lory.
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I can think of plenty of bad cars in the US, but the thing is THEY SELL.
One can hardly argue with that.
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I chose a Subaru WRX because I wanted an AWD sedan with at least 200hp.
Audi quatro, Merc 4Matic, Passat what's-it-called-this-week...? Aren't they available across the pond?
I myself drive a Twingo 
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