#271384 - 04/12/2005 21:02
Are most British car reviews this pompous?
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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http://motoring.independent.co.uk/road_tests/article330826.eceI haven't read British reviews since I was scouring the internet for anything about the Subaru WRX (so about 5 years ago) but I don't remember coming across anything like this. Is this typical? I've heard that the British press, in general, can appear to be very "harsh" compared to US publications, but I always thought this was limited to political or tabloid publications.
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Brad B.
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#271385 - 04/12/2005 21:18
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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veteran
Registered: 19/06/2000
Posts: 1495
Loc: US: CA
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What's wrong with being honest?
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#271386 - 04/12/2005 21:22
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Looks fine to me.
Are you complaining about the review being "harsh" or "pompous"?
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#271387 - 04/12/2005 22:29
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: ricin]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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I guess "harsh" wasn't really the right word. It just came across as very snobbish. Calling all American cars pitiful (I can think of plenty of exceptions) and implying that any country that produced the Space Shuttle isn't capable of making a car with a decent interior. The CTS may be new to the UK, but it's in its third model year now, so I don't expect it to compete against the latest German sedans despite what Cadillac's marketing team might hope for. So while taking stabs at the car is fair game, the tone of the review seemed more like a snobbish commentary on the American automobile industry than an in-depth look at a new model hitting your shores. The repair bill on the Space Shuttle is still cheaper than the one on my uncle's (pre-Ford) Jaguar! 
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Brad B.
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#271388 - 04/12/2005 22:38
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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addict
Registered: 24/07/2002
Posts: 618
Loc: South London
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Tbh, given the amount of stick that GM get everytime they bring a car over from the USA, you'd think that they'd either:
1) Not bother.
2) Sort out the interior & fix the handling and engine.
On the otherhand, we got the holden monaro (GM Australia) and the press loved it.
Edited by sn00p (04/12/2005 22:41)
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#271389 - 05/12/2005 02:42
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: ricin]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 17/12/2000
Posts: 2665
Loc: Manteca, California
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Quote:
What's wrong with being honest?
In the US, the media wouldn't dis any potential advertiser in that way. Not unless they have the sent of blood in their noses.
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Glenn
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#271390 - 05/12/2005 10:13
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
It just came across as very snobbish.
US cars in general aren't very highly rated here. The same used to be true of many British cars as well - but since we no longer have a mass market automotive industry that doesn't really apply any more.
Quote:
The repair bill on the Space Shuttle is still cheaper than the one on my uncle's (pre-Ford) Jaguar!
Jags are expensive to repair, but since any (non classic) Jag over 5 years old costs almost nothing to buy in the UK it doesn't matter. The price of second hand Jags in the US is absolutely astounding!
Rob
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#271392 - 05/12/2005 14:46
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Brits complaining about the US's lousy auto industry is quite a bit like, well, Brits complaining about the US's lousy space program. Maybe we'll pay attention when you have one.
At the same time, the CTS is kinda mediocre. It drives nicely as a sports sedan, but the interior is really rather cheap. Black plastic with white silkscreen and such. Not what you'd expect from Cadillac. If they'd just spent more than a nickel on the interior it'd be a pretty nice car.
The cheap shots against the US are odd, though: the Billy Ray Cyrus jab, the Space Shuttle program. I find it hard to believe, though, that he thinks it's intended to fit into the BMW 5-series, Audi A6 arena, though. It's obviously 3-series sized. Maybe on price? Not here, but maybe there.
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#271393 - 05/12/2005 15:02
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
At the same time, the CTS is kinda mediocre. It drives nicely as a sports sedan, but the interior is really rather cheap. Black plastic with white silkscreen and such. Not what you'd expect from Cadillac. If they'd just spent more than a nickel on the interior it'd be a pretty nice car.
Actually owning a Cadillac, I have to disagree there. For a $50,000+ car when new, my Fleetwood Brougham has an absolutely shameful interior. The leather seems like it's good quality, but the rest of the materials are just utter crap. The fit and finish of the interior is also in the toilet. After 9 years of the most loving care taken, bits are falling off all over.
All that said, there is nothing on the road like it and I enjoy it thoroughly.
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80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#271394 - 05/12/2005 15:14
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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My mom owneed a Cadillac for many years (an '85 or '86 Seville or deVille, can't remember which: it'd help if the name was more than one letter different), and it was nice. It wasn't cheap at all, mostly well-fitted plastic, metal, and wood. It wore over time, sure, but nothing bad. It still looked pretty good when she got rid of it. But the CTS feels like some cheap Asian import. I mean, I don't know if you've been in one, but I'm 100% serious. There are other reasons I don't like the interior, too, but they really should have thrown some money at it. I think, in the US at least, a Cadillac customer expects something a little bit classy, or at least better looking at purchase than the other brands, but it looks terrible.
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#271395 - 05/12/2005 15:55
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Just in case people haven't seen it, here's a shot of the CTS's interior from Cadillac's web site:
First, who chose that font? And, like I said, the lettering, including that on the dials, is not injection-molded or anything, it's silkscreened. And not well at that. You can see the black plastic through it where it's already started to wear off at the dealership. Speaking of the plastic, it's about the grade you'd expect to find on an alarm clock. And I didn't see one with the leather and wood upgrade. It's usually more of that pseudo-sandblasted plastic or that weird square-textured stuff.
That said, it really drives pretty well, and they offer a manual transmission in the US market.
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Bitt Faulk
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#271396 - 05/12/2005 15:56
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
I find it hard to believe, though, that he thinks it's intended to fit into the BMW 5-series, Audi A6 arena, though. It's obviously 3-series sized. Maybe on price? Not here, but maybe there.
It looks like it is similar to 3 series prices in the UK as well, the equivalent 5 series looks to be about £5k more.
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#271397 - 05/12/2005 16:58
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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addict
Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 434
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
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Quote:
Just in case people haven't seen it, here's a shot of the CTS's interior from Cadillac's web site:
Just a quick question is that a real photo of the interior or is that from a pre-production model? Also where are the KPH markings? I haven't really paid attention to any US cars dashboards in a bit, I thought that the KPH markings were required by law. At least I don't think I've been in a car that didn't have both, at least in the USA.
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#271398 - 05/12/2005 17:11
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: petteri]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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In the Cadillac STS, you select KpH on the computer and the needle recalibrates itself. Not sure about the smaller CTS.
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Brad B.
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#271399 - 05/12/2005 17:44
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: petteri]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Given that it's been in production for a few years, I can't see why it'd be from a pre-production model, but I suppose it's possible that it is. And even if it can recalibrate the needle to kph, it's still got that mph silkscreen.
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Bitt Faulk
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#271400 - 05/12/2005 17:47
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Maybe it doesn't have that feature then. The STS has no silkscreen so maybe that's why they can offer it.. It's been a few years since I worked at GM so I'm not as privy to all that good stuff.
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Brad B.
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#271401 - 05/12/2005 23:31
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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The other side of the "mph" you can see a very dark blur that looks like "kph", so it looks like a little disc or something rotates to switch them over.
On the older cars with digital dashes you could just pull a fuse link to switch it to kph, it's probably some fancy menu on the radio now.
Gareth
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#271402 - 05/12/2005 23:57
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Quote:
(I can think of plenty of exceptions)
Please make a list of exceptions. I think nearly all American cars are completly dreadful when compared to European and Japanese cars at the same price level. Don't just ist the "nicest" (least awful) American cars, but ones that actually compare favorably to European and/or Japanese equivalents.
I can't think of any. Maybe the Corvette. Maybe. The BMW M3 is a vastly better car in practically every respect, for about the same or even less money.
Maybe full-sized pickups, but that is simply because they are the only ones in the market. Until recently, that is. The Japanese have come out with some full-sized pickups that have gotten much better reviews than the American ones.
I won't even discuss the horrific SUV segment.
Seriously. Where are these great American cars? The new Chrysler 300? Possibly, but that isn't exactly "plenty".
Jim
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#271403 - 06/12/2005 02:38
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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The way most Americans buy a car is completely moronic and senseless. "An American car with a V6" is often the only essential criteria. This is why so many GM cars have the same crappy 200HP V6 for the past 10 years. It's exactly what the american public thinks it wants. An inefficient V6. Forget about handling. On long expanses of flat, straight highway, it's not needed. Lots of old people buy a Cadillac before they die because it's what they've been saving their whole life to get. They're buying a lifestyle, not a good car. Men put their wives and kids in SUVs because they think it's like a tank and will keep them safe. Most people I come across with an SUV don't even know how to properly put it into 4wd. That just shows you they're not using them for their utility. It's just a people-hauler for their overgrown family. Maybe I shouldn't talk. I'm back to driving an SUV everyday and I'm the only one in it. At least it was built in Japan though and gasoline is back down to $2/gallon. 
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80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#271404 - 06/12/2005 05:04
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 31/08/1999
Posts: 1649
Loc: San Carlos, CA
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Quote:
Where are these great American cars?
American cars are entirely different than european or asian cars, not necessarily great, but different. I'd say that a lot more American cars than imports have "character". There is no import competition (at least sold in the US) for the Ford Mustang, the Chrysler 300, the Jeep Wrangler, the Dodge Viper, a Hummer or a full size GM or Ford pickup. If your in the market for any of those vehicles, odds are you aren't even looking at the imports.
Quote:
Maybe the Corvette. Maybe. The BMW M3 is a vastly better car in practically every respect, for about the same or even less money.
The Vette and the M3 aren't even in the same class. The M3 is a nice handling, fast sedan with very little flash. At a glance you can't tell it from any other 3 series beamer or a lot of other boring looking sedans. A vette is all about flash, it is the car you buy during your midlife crisis when you look around and realize that everyone else in your social class is driving a BMW.
-Mike
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#271405 - 06/12/2005 07:19
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: mcomb]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Quote:
The Vette and the M3 aren't even in the same class.
Absolutely - the M3 is a really good car for Scottish roads, in sneakily understated bodykit, while the Vette is a shockingly poor handling, brash, annoying thing that sounds quite nice and is probably quite fun on straight, wide roads.
Horses for courses
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#271406 - 06/12/2005 09:18
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: robricc]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 24/12/2001
Posts: 5528
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Quote:
Men put their wives and kids in SUVs because they think it's like a tank and will keep them safe. Most people I come across with an SUV don't even know how to properly put it into 4wd. That just shows you they're not using them for their utility. It's just a people-hauler for their overgrown family.
We get a similar thing here. You see lots of people with an absolutely pristine land/range rover which has never seen mud in it's life and a single kid all the way in the back for the school run.
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#271407 - 06/12/2005 10:13
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
while the Vette is a shockingly poor handling
Are you guys getting the 84 Vette over there??? The new Z06 is going head to head with Ferraris in publications here, with instrumented tests, and is in the same leage (not to mention the 1/3 cost). You can drive the thing in the winter and people can actually afford to race the things.
Kind of reminds me of how the Lotus Eclipse was legendary for being the best handleing car in the world. Until some magazines actually started hooking instrumentation upto it and found this wasn't the case at all.
The Range Rover was supposed to be great and off roading too... but until very recently that wasn't the case. And that credit only goes to either BMW or Ford.
And don't discount whole segments simply because European or Japanese makers don't produce them. I simply could not function in my career without my diesel pickup. To say our pickups don't count because nobody else is tying to make them would disqualify the M3/M5 because no US car maker has tried anything like the M3/M5.
Likewise, if I wanted a RWD, 300hp coupe for $25, I'm looking at a Ford Mustang GT or a Dodge Charger if I want a sedan. The only thing close would be a Nissan 350Z but the heritage of a 350 does't stack up to a Mustang.
And I know it's fashionable to hate SUVs, but we don't have tiny roads here. I don't own one because I don't like the rough ride or bad fuel economy, but the Pacifica cross-over we have has been a Godsend raising our baby and going on trips out of town.
I can think of plenty of bad cars in the US, but the thing is THEY SELL. Can you expect Ford to pull the Mercury Grand Marquis off of the road when it comprises of a majority of the entire company's sales? Just because you or I might not like a car, we can't expect that to be reason enough for a company to pull the plug on a certain model. The people buying these cars have plenty of other options but still choose their Taurus. We can talk about how dumb our 45 year old, married mother of 3 is for chosing interior square footage and comfort over razor sharp handling and DVD navigation, but isn't that being snobby?
I chose a Subaru WRX because I wanted an AWD sedan with at least 200hp. It was my only option. But I can't blame the whole country for not wanting the same thing. In fact, I intentionally picked the car because I knew there wouldn't be many of them on the road.
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (06/12/2005 10:42)
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Brad B.
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#271408 - 06/12/2005 10:38
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: robricc]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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I agree that most SUV owners don’t ever use their SUV’s as SUV’s however I'm the 1% that does. I live on a farm and use my SUV to its fullest. It sure is nice when the wheels start spinning and you just flick it in 4WD and go, no worries.
I also live up north and was in a bad snow/ice storm over Thanksgiving. The 4WD sure does help keep you from spinning out. However a lot of people think “I have an SUV I don’t need to slow down and can stop on a dime.” I saw several of those people in the ditch.
I can see why people give SUV’s, and their owners, a bad rap but some people do need them and use them as intended.
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#271409 - 06/12/2005 10:40
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 09/08/2000
Posts: 2091
Loc: Edinburgh, Scotland
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Don't remember which versions I drove actually - I keep taking cars which are supposed to be good on track days, and the only ones I have found that have good handling (as in really good handling) are the Evos, Imprezas, Caterhams/Westfields, a Skyline GTR and some of the Porsches (if you like over twitchy good handling)
Nothing else cornered well enough - and I'm including a few Ferraris, BMWs, Mercedes SLK, a Holden (handled badly but was damn good fun and stupidly powerful) a couple of different Corvettes and some others.
As I say, horses for courses - I would love Subaru to make a slightly less plasticky interior, and it would be good to have a higher top speed on the track, but as long as I can get 0-60mph in 5.2 seconds and go round roundabouts at 70mph fully sideways I'm pretty happy, whereas others may like something which looks a bit nicer but maybe doesn't perform as well.
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MkIIa, blue lit buttons, memory upgrade, 1Tb in Subaru Forester STi
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#271410 - 06/12/2005 10:43
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Sorry, I edited my post (adding quite a bit) while you wrote yours..
Edited by SE_Sport_Driver (06/12/2005 10:43)
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Brad B.
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#271411 - 06/12/2005 11:16
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 14/01/2002
Posts: 2858
Loc: Atlanta, GA
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We own two Ford cars- I have a Mustang that I bought used and my wife drives a Ford Escape. The mustang is a V6 that is very underpowered, but still a lot of fun to drive. I got a great deal on it (<$10,000 w/ <20,000 miles) and have loved owning it, even if I would have preferred the V8 model. I haven't regretted the purchase. Now the Escape has been a wonderful car. I'm not sure it's a "proper" SUV- it is built like a car more than a typical SUV. It's fun to drive- definitely with enough power, and the utility is great. We have hauled people and music equipment everywhere in the thing. I can't image anything that would have provided as fun a driving experience and still offered the utility that the Escape does. After having owned one, I'm a huge fan. We bought ours before they started making the hybrids, but I'm definitely intersted in checking those out . . .
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Rome did not create a great empire by having meetings; they did it by killing all those who opposed them.
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#271412 - 06/12/2005 13:48
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Quote:
the heritage of a 350 does't stack up to a Mustang
True. The 350Z doesn't have to look back on the Mustang II, the remarkably underpowered so-called muscle cars of the early 80s, the aging technology (it still has a live rear axle). Basically what you're saying is that you wish you could get a '67 Mustang, but since that's not really available, you can get something that has the same name plastered on it.
At least they haven't been complete crap for the last five years or so.
And the Mustangs only have five years more history than the Datsun/Nissan Z-car series.
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Bitt Faulk
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#271413 - 06/12/2005 18:58
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
Are you guys getting the 84 Vette over there??? The new Z06 is going head to head with Ferraris in publications here, with instrumented tests, and is in the same leage (not to mention the 1/3 cost). You can drive the thing in the winter and people can actually afford to race the things.
I remember the guys from Car&Driver racing a Vette (I think this was in the days of the 4th generation one) against a Carrera on some tiny twisty roads and on a track (I think they used some manufacturer's proving grounds or something like that) - Corvette won.
Quote:
I simply could not function in my career without my diesel pickup.
Interesting, people who need to haul a lot of cargo here usually choose vans of some kind, not open-bed pickups. Almost every manufactuter makes them in three or four sizes, from a sub-compact without back seats to 3-ton almost-lory.
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I can think of plenty of bad cars in the US, but the thing is THEY SELL.
One can hardly argue with that.
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I chose a Subaru WRX because I wanted an AWD sedan with at least 200hp.
Audi quatro, Merc 4Matic, Passat what's-it-called-this-week...? Aren't they available across the pond?
I myself drive a Twingo 
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#271414 - 06/12/2005 19:09
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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The reason that the US automakers sell a lot of bad cars is that they're cheap. They're making virtually no profit on them, as evidenced by their recent "anyone can buy at employee prices" promotions that have been going on for what seems to be a year or so.
Pickup trucks are really the only hauling vehicles that you can find at a normal dealership. The type of vans that you are talking about basically don't exist here and the sort that do don't generally seem to be available at consumer dealerships.
What he meant is that he wanted an inexpensive 200hp AWD. I hear it's different in Europe, but, in the US, European makes are almost exclusively in the "luxury" category, with VW being an exception, but even they are trying to go that way, starting with their prices. Given the fact that US automakers are ignoring large parts of the auto consumer market, namely people who actually like cars (they basically sell Trucks/SUVs, econoboxes, and land yachts, with a few exceptions), that probably was his only choice.
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#271415 - 06/12/2005 19:22
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: bonzi]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Audi quatro, Merc 4Matic, Passat what's-it-called-this-week...? Aren't they available across the pond?
Available, but all more expensive (especially the Merc). Volvos are the other choice, but they are also quite expensive for the fast 4wd ones. I bought a Subaru over a Passat wagon for the price - and I liked the drive of the Soobie better anyway.
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#271416 - 06/12/2005 19:54
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: cushman]
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addict
Registered: 02/08/2004
Posts: 434
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
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One of the things I've noticed about the cars sold in the European market compared to the US is at the lower end of the market. It seems that small does not always equal cheap in Europe. It's hard to find a 'nice' small car here in the USA. The MINI is sold here of course but that's about it. No SMART, even Honda and Toyota have different low end models here. The European makes (the ones that operate in this martket) for the most part don't offer the smaller models for sale here at all. Its a shame.
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#271417 - 06/12/2005 20:16
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: cushman]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
Available, but all more expensive (especially the Merc). Volvos are the other choice, but they are also quite expensive for the fast 4wd ones. I bought a Subaru over a Passat wagon for the price - and I liked the drive of the Soobie better anyway.
I see. Interesting, 225HP WRX is here only about 10% cheaper than 200HP Volvo XC70 (which I prefer to almost-SUV XC90); 275HP Passat 4Motion is almost 25% dearer than WRX. Anyway, I could stand any one of them (for out-of-town driving, anyway)...
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#271418 - 06/12/2005 20:31
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Quote:
Pickup trucks are really the only hauling vehicles that you can find at a normal dealership. The type of vans that you are talking about basically don't exist here and the sort that do don't generally seem to be available at consumer dealerships.
The Mercedes Sprinter (joint partnership with Freightliner) is being sold in the US, and is also sold as a Dodge Sprinter. I drove one of these (the Mercedes version), and it is an amazing utility vehicle. If I needed to haul stuff, I would definitely get one of these as a work truck before a pickup. It has an incredibly tight turning circle, too; it feels like you are moving sideways in the driver's seat when turning around. The thing gets 25mpg on top of it all, due to the fantastic Mercedes diesel.
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#271419 - 06/12/2005 21:00
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I thought I was seeing an odd number of those around recently. That is absolutely the first van of that type I've seen at a consumer dealership in ages. Besides that, it's pretty much the Chevy and Ford E-Series vans, which, as far as I can tell, haven't really been updated since 1973.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#271420 - 06/12/2005 21:05
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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The Mercedes Sprinter is incredible to behold, but I must wonder (without doing *any* research) what the price is compared to a simple Ford E350 cargo van.
-Price comparison only-
I understand the differences in size, engine availability, quality, etc.
Vans like the Sprinter have been availalble in Europe forever, it seems. The closest thing you could find in the states is, well, maybe a UPS truck.
_________________________
10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#271421 - 06/12/2005 21:20
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 30/10/2000
Posts: 4931
Loc: New Jersey, USA
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Quote:
Vans like the Sprinter have been availalble in Europe forever, it seems. The closest thing you could find in the states is, well, maybe a UPS truck.
If you say so....
Freightliner
Dodge
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-Rob Riccardelli
80GB 16MB MK2 090000736
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#271422 - 06/12/2005 21:32
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: Robotic]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Looks like the E350 starts at $$27,815 and the Sprinter starts at $29,585. The E150 starts at $25,375
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Bitt Faulk
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#271424 - 06/12/2005 22:38
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
Brits complaining about the US's lousy auto industry is quite a bit like, well, Brits complaining about the US's lousy space program.
I'm not sure I agree. Not having a mass market auto industry of our own would seem to eliminate national bias from the decision making process. Most Brits would recommend German or Japanese cars. From what I've seen driving around in the US, it seems most Americans agree!
However, the UK still makes the best taxi cabs in the world 
Rob
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#271425 - 07/12/2005 00:40
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: frog51]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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while the Vette is a shockingly poor handling, brash, annoying thing
Show me the BMW (any BMW, regardless of model series) that will stay with a Z06 Corvette on any road or race course, and I'll be impressed.
The 'Vette will out-accelerate, out-brake, out-corner the M3, and cost less to buy and maintain while doing it.
There is no car selling for under $150,000 that will run with it. It will approach 30 MPG in highway driving. It is arguably the equal of Porsches and Ferraris that sell for two and three times the price.
No, I am not a Corvette owner, I don't even particularly like them -- but the new C6 series 'Vette is one hell of a car.
tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#271426 - 07/12/2005 05:42
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: bonzi]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
I see. Interesting, 225HP WRX is here only about 10% cheaper than 200HP Volvo XC70 (which I prefer to almost-SUV XC90); 275HP Passat 4Motion is almost 25% dearer than WRX. Anyway, I could stand any one of them (for out-of-town driving, anyway)...
I don't really see how the XC70 is comparable to the WRX. It is 200kg heavier, which would explain why it is 3.5 seconds slower to sixty.
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#271427 - 07/12/2005 06:00
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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The new Z06 is a world-class car, no doubt. It is the rare exception to the rule that US cars suck.
Jim
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#271428 - 07/12/2005 06:01
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 10/06/1999
Posts: 5916
Loc: Wivenhoe, Essex, UK
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Quote:
The 'Vette will out-accelerate, out-brake, out-corner the M3, and cost less to buy and maintain while doing it.
There is no car selling for under $150,000 that will run with it. It will approach 30 MPG in highway driving. It is arguably the equal of Porsches and Ferraris that sell for two and three times the price.
No, I am not a Corvette owner, I don't even particularly like them -- but the new C6 series 'Vette is one hell of a car.
Every UK car reviewer (including the ones I trust) disagrees with you. It isn't a US/UK bias that causes this either, for example the excellent Evo magazine had their car of the year feature this month.
The placed the Corvette 12th out of 13, with the Roush Mustang at joint 3rd.
From the various reviews that I have read the conclusions seems to be that it is powerful, fast and desirable, but that it hates bumpy roads. To quote from Evo:
"...this is a seriously quick car..."
"...on smooth roads it'll maintain this thrilling pace, the steering meaty and direct, body control good and traction out of corners excellent..."
"You can sense a 'but' coming along soon, can't you? The C6's problem is that it doesn't like bumps. It's not too keen on sharp crests. And if you throw a less than ideal camber into the mix, it all turns rather ugly. First it gets agitated, then it starts to skip across the road..."
"Its composure is just too easily upset. It may well have double wishbone suspension at all four corners, but if you had to guess you'd say it was the Corvette rather than the Roush Mustang that had the live rear axle."
"All of that said, the C6 still has a hell of a lot going for it. Just think of it as a smooth-roar super-fast GT rather than a sports car and you'll not be disappointed."
P.S. all the UK reviewers seem to argee however that the latest Corvette is vastly improved over previous ones
_________________________
Remind me to change my signature to something more interesting someday
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#271430 - 07/12/2005 07:37
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 13/04/2001
Posts: 1742
Loc: The land of the pale blue peop...
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Quote:
Show me the BMW (any BMW, regardless of model series) that will stay with a Z06 Corvette on any road or race course, and I'll be impressed.
okay lets be impressed then
Nurburgring in germany
corvette C6 is 8:15
BMW M3 CSL 7:50
BMW M6 8:06
BMW M5 8:13
Now i could not find a laptime for a production Z06 but a prototype based on the Z06 did it in 7:40 but it is in no way is it a Z06 http://www.autocar.co.uk/news_article.asp?na_id=216013
Now if you want to talk cheap speed then radical have done it in 6:55http://www.radicalextremesportscars.com/news_folder/nord0905/index.php and that is under $150,000 and road legal.
_________________________
P.Allison fixer of big engines
Mk2+Mk2a signed by God / Hacked by the Lord
Aberdeen Scotland
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#271431 - 07/12/2005 08:05
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: thinfourth2]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Quote:
okay lets be impressed then
Nurburgring in germany
corvette C6 is 8:15
BMW M3 CSL 7:50
BMW M6 8:06
BMW M5 8:13
According to this thread, the "official" time for a Z06 is 7.42.99. How standard that car is, I don't know. Pretty damn fast though!
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#271432 - 07/12/2005 08:27
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: sein]
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old hand
Registered: 07/01/2005
Posts: 893
Loc: Sector ZZ9pZa
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Quote:
According to this thread...
Oh, a conversation here has someone pointing out that the blue Z06 on the 'ring had a supercharger and ~600bhp.
Its obviously not quite easy to get numbers for these things from the salty world of the Internet.
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#271433 - 07/12/2005 10:46
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 05/01/2001
Posts: 4903
Loc: Detroit, MI USA
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Quote:
If I needed to haul stuff, I would definitely get one of these as a work truck before a pickup. It has an incredibly tight turning circle, too; it feels like you are moving sideways in the driver's seat when turning around. The thing gets 25mpg on top of it all, due to the fantastic Mercedes diesel.
I don't just haul stuff, I haul a LOT of stuff. And I need an open top to do it. I have forklifts drop cubes of masonry block, ceramic tile, scaffolding, etc into my bed. I need an open top to do that.
Those vans seem like they'd be perfect for our plumbers, electricans and the like. As far back as 1992, I remember seeing Ford drive these vans around (I could have sworn they had Escort in the title even though they were not Escorts). Ford brings over a ton of cool toys to play with including some from Australia and Cosworth Escorts. But I'm not sure why. They never bother to offer them to us. That may be changin with the new Dodge Sprinter however. The one I see driving around is from a dealership and has "I'm a Dodge Sprinter" painted on it in 12" tall letters.
I wonder if they're offered in AWD. Many of the construction sites are so muddy that you need 4x4 to not get stuck.
_________________________
Brad B.
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#271434 - 07/12/2005 11:24
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: andy]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
The placed the Corvette 12th out of 13, with the Roush Mustang at joint 3rd.
Or, if you like, 12th among all production car models on the planet.
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#271438 - 07/12/2005 15:02
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: g_attrill]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 29/08/2000
Posts: 14496
Loc: Canada
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Anyone out there know of a way to save these videos to disk for playback when I'm elsewhere, away from my internet connection?
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#271439 - 07/12/2005 16:46
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: mlord]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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IIRC, mplayer has an output option that will let you write it to a file instead of displaying it. That's hearsay, though.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#271440 - 07/12/2005 17:18
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: rob]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Of course you're right, but there is a distinct anti-American tone to the article that seems, well, unnecessary. And not just anti-American-car, which is certainly well-deserved of late.
I'm honestly still not sure who buys these American cars. Trucks I can understand, and some of the conpact cars I can understand. And there are a few cars or imprints here and there that are at least interesting on some level, like the Corvette, the Mustang, the Buick line, and a good number of Dodge/Chrysler cars. But I just don't understand who's buying any Pontiac or non-compact Chevy or Ford.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#271441 - 07/12/2005 17:30
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 21/05/1999
Posts: 5335
Loc: Cambridge UK
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Quote:
Of course you're right, but there is a distinct anti-American tone to the article that seems, well, unnecessary.
It's just a bit of tongue in cheek racism - most automotive hacks write like that. It's nothing personal. The most outspoken American-car-hating journalist in the world bought a GT40 - twice! (The second time after regretting sending it back following a few break downs).
Rob
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#271442 - 07/12/2005 18:27
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
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Come on, now, I seem to remember sitting in Palm Beach, the night of the milennium celebrations and every time London's fireworks came on, we were treated to a load of "Once Great Nation" and "former colonialists" stuff, so much that my brother-in-law turned off the television and changed the subject to avoid more embarrassment.
Pot, kettle, black!
But I'll never be an Inde. reader, I don't like the self righteous pitch that they take on a whole load of issues, apart from motoring.
Incidentally, we had the first 4x4 in a ditch here in North Yorkshire, today: Woman taking two kids to school who thought it was invincible. 4x4 is the same as any other car on sheet ice, possibly worse, unless it's got very clever traction control.
_________________________
Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
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#271443 - 07/12/2005 18:31
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: boxer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/06/1999
Posts: 7868
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Quote:
4x4 is the same as any other car on sheet ice, possibly worse, unless it's got very clever traction control.
Very true. Doesn't help much when all 4 wheels are spinning the same. Having a proper traction control system in my car I got in 2000 has made a big difference in the snow and ice. I won't buy a car without it again for winter driving.
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#271444 - 07/12/2005 18:41
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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Quote:
. But I just don't understand who's buying any Pontiac or non-compact Chevy or Ford.
I have a hard time understanding why anyone would want a four door. It just comes down to different priorities, budgets and likes, I guess.
I got a Pontiac Grand-Am GT as a rental car a few years ago and it was a blast to drive in CA on some canyon roads.
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#271445 - 07/12/2005 18:44
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: boxer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Well, just because it's bad one place doesn't make the bad in another place okay. But point taken. Regardless, I certainly don't ever remember any anti-English sentiment in the US during my lifetime. (Well, ISTR there was an episode of The Andy Griffith Show where Ernest T. didn't want to share the drunk tank with an "Englishter" (Bernard Fox), but that's apparently because he was an "Irishter".)
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#271446 - 07/12/2005 18:47
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: rob]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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This is the answer to this post -> Quote:
It's just a bit of tongue in cheek racism - most automotive hacks write like that. It's nothing personal.
translated -> British humor we US’ers just don’t get.
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#271447 - 07/12/2005 18:56
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
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Quote:
I certainly don't ever remember any anti-English sentiment in the US during my lifetime.
No, me neither, I always have a great time, but I always feel that I'm being treated as a curiosity, but then I have the same feeling in the UK.!
In the 70's, Mrs.Boxer and I went in to a bank in Valdosta, Florida to cash a cheque: The teller/cashier said: "Could you say that again, hey girls, just come and listen to this accent"!
_________________________
Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
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#271448 - 07/12/2005 19:01
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: boxer]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I can assure you that the vast majority of Americans think that most English accents are attractive, though, so I doubt they were making fun of you. Well, most southern English accents, and some urban northern English accents. Though I doubt most people can really peg the differences.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#271449 - 07/12/2005 19:12
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: boxer]
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old hand
Registered: 17/01/2003
Posts: 998
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I think most of us in the US love the UK accent. And the sayings and expressions you guys come up with are great.
I was on a business call with a bird in the UK and she did something wrong and the asked “Oh, have I been naughty?” I thought I was going to lose it. I instantly had this vision of some S&M paddling session.
The one nice thing about that accent is I can understand people from the UK better than many people here. Well, I guess you’re doing it right, after all, you did cook up the language.
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#271450 - 07/12/2005 19:22
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 20/12/1999
Posts: 31600
Loc: Seattle, WA
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Quote:
Well, most southern English accents, and some urban northern English accents.
Boxer is from Scotland, if I recall correctly? Could be remembering wrong.
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#271451 - 07/12/2005 19:38
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: tfabris]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 16/04/2002
Posts: 2011
Loc: Yorkshire UK
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Boxer's from Kent, South of London, but has lived in Yorkshire, 200 and something miles North, since the early 70's, that may be just next door to you people, but it's a whole cultural difference here! Scotland is one of my most favourite places, we went three times, last year.
I think that I've missed my own point, which is, that journalists, press or TV, have to hype things up, not that I feel that either of our nations remotely have a problem with each other.
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Politics and Ideology: Not my bag
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#271453 - 07/12/2005 20:14
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: wfaulk]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 08/07/1999
Posts: 5549
Loc: Ajijic, Mexico
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But I just don't understand who's buying any Pontiac Perhaps the people who might be considering a Miata/MX5? Autoweek magazine did a comparison test a couple weeks ago, and the results were.... surprising. If you don't want to wade through the entire article, the closing paragraph has the gist of it: But with all things considered, three factors weigh heavily in favor of the Solstice: fresh, good looks, better on-road ride and handling, and superior driving comfort. While we would be happy with either in our garage, for this test the Pontiac Solstice is our pick.
For Pontiac to have come up with a first generation car that can go toe to toe with the until now undisputed leader in the category is pretty impressive. tanstaafl.
_________________________
"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch"
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#271454 - 07/12/2005 20:35
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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old hand
Registered: 15/02/2002
Posts: 1049
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Quote:
I don't just haul stuff, I haul a LOT of stuff. And I need an open top to do it. I have forklifts drop cubes of masonry block, ceramic tile, scaffolding, etc into my bed. I need an open top to do that.
Can't beat a pickup or flat-bet truck for that.
Quote:
Those vans seem like they'd be perfect for our plumbers, electricans and the like.
That's it exactly. I talked to a hardwood flooring guy who switched from 1 ton GMC vans to the Sprinter, and he ranted an raved about how great it was and how much money he was saving on fuel. Its a great candidate for ambulances, too. I talked to a Sprinter paramedic unit and they said it took some getting used to because its quite a bit narrower than the boxes they put on the back of trucks.
Quote:
I wonder if they're offered in AWD. Many of the construction sites are so muddy that you need 4x4 to not get stuck.
I believe they are RWD only. At least, they were when I went to test drive one a couple of years ago.
Jim
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#271455 - 07/12/2005 23:04
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: Redrum]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
I think most of us in the US love the UK accent. And the sayings and expressions you guys come up with are great.
The nuances of language can catch you out.
There was a letter in the paper a few weeks back - a lady was in Australia and met the local rugby team just as they were leaving for a match - she said to them "well we're all rooting for you" (meaning, in a way "we're supporting you"). They replied "thanks but we can manage that ourselves!", leaving her wondering what "rooting" meant in Oz. I didn't know either until I looked it up 
Gareth
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#271456 - 07/12/2005 23:20
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: TigerJimmy]
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old hand
Registered: 14/04/2002
Posts: 1172
Loc: Hants, UK
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Quote:
I talked to a Sprinter paramedic unit and they said it took some getting used to because its quite a bit narrower than the boxes they put on the back of trucks.
The Sprinters are popular as ambulances in the UK because they are damned quick, that's why they are also popular with parcel couriers!
The standard ambulance used to be a Ford Transit or LDV with a fibreglass rear (like this) and powered by a Rover V8 (derived from a Buick design).
Several ambulance services have tried a right hand drive Chevy Blazer (part-made in Australia) with a Wheeled Coach box rear (like this, but they found as well as costing a fortune to run the gearboxes used to blow up quite often, especially in hilly areas.
However they liked the box rear because as well as having more room it was stronger and therefore safer in a crash, so quite a few services seem to be buying Sprinters with a separate box rear, eg. London like this
Gareth
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#271457 - 08/12/2005 13:51
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: tanstaafl.]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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I knew I should have mentioned the Solstice. It does look pretty nice.
_________________________
Bitt Faulk
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#271459 - 08/12/2005 14:46
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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That makes sense. I don't think there's really much style to be found the greater Detroit metro area.
-Zeke
_________________________
WWFSMD?
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#271461 - 08/12/2005 18:30
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: andy]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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Quote:
I don't really see how the XC70 is comparable to the WRX. It is 200kg heavier, which would explain why it is 3.5 seconds slower to sixty.
I agree, they are quite different beasts, but we were simply talking strong(ish) 4x4 non-SUVs.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#271462 - 08/12/2005 18:41
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: Ezekiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 25/12/2000
Posts: 16706
Loc: Raleigh, NC US
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Actually, there's a lot of style in the greater Detroit metro area (see Bloomfield Hills, Grosse Point, etc.). It's the incorporated area that's lacking in so many ways.
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Bitt Faulk
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#271463 - 08/12/2005 18:42
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 13/09/1999
Posts: 2401
Loc: Croatia
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In '70s and '80 Ford Transit van was legendary among "guest workers" returning after a few year stint at German construction sites to start a small business of their own. Or you could see them overflowing with Turkish families driving Ruhr-Anatolia non-stop.
_________________________
Dragi "Bonzi" Raos
Q#5196
MkII #080000376, 18GB green
MkIIa #040103247, 60GB blue
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#271464 - 08/12/2005 19:29
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: Ezekiel]
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carpal tunnel
Registered: 27/06/1999
Posts: 7058
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
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"Take him to Detroit!
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#271465 - 08/12/2005 19:47
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: tonyc]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 06/04/2005
Posts: 2026
Loc: Seattle transplant
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wav file! http://members.tripod.com/~JB5353/kfm/kfm.html8th down from the top. Shucks- I woulda linked it directly, but I couldn't.
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10101311 (20GB- backup empeg)
10101466 (2x60GB, Eutronix/GreenLights Blue) (Stolen!)
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#271467 - 09/12/2005 00:17
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: tonyc]
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veteran
Registered: 21/01/2002
Posts: 1380
Loc: Erie, CO
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Funniest. Movie. Evar.
/goes to Amazon to order
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#271468 - 09/12/2005 02:59
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: SE_Sport_Driver]
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pooh-bah
Registered: 25/08/2000
Posts: 2413
Loc: NH USA
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Present company excepted, of course!
-Zeke
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#271469 - 09/12/2005 10:00
Re: Are most British car reviews this pompous?
[Re: g_attrill]
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enthusiast
Registered: 06/08/2002
Posts: 333
Loc: The Pilbara, Western Australia
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Wombat: Eats Roots Shoots and Leaves
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Peter.
"I spent 90% of my money on women, drink and fast cars. The rest I wasted." - George Best
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