I've been wondering how the MkII release is going to affect the BBS, which, while unofficial, has proved to be invaluable to the users and developers of the Empeg and third-party apps and hardware. I know this topic has come up a lot already, but my main question is: can the current format (software AND hardware) support the new/prospective users that are bound to join in to the conversations? This is an open BBS chiefly, but not solely, for those interested in the Empeg-car player. As that number increases, will the current system need to change? Is PaulH going to continue to be kind enough to look after the maintenance/server space, etc? We've heard that the software running the BBS is the last free version available. Would Slash (or some other software package - I have no idea) work better? There's probably not much to worry about, as I doubt the number of users is going to skyrocket into the millions, but it might be something we (or at least PaulH) need to consider...

_~= Dearing =~_
"WAY too happy about having #99."

I'm not sure what hardware paulH is running this software on, but we're actually running the same software (same version even) for our departmental forums here, which handles a much-higher volume of messages then this board... The software runs on mysql, and seems to handle high-traffics without any major problems.. It is running on a database, which makes it much more robust then a majority of the free software packages out there..

-mark

...proud to have one of the first Mark I units

This BBS is a very important resource for empeg clients (present and future) and of course we are keen to ensure that it remains online, stable and well maintained.

We are talking with Paul about this, but we do feel that it's very important for the BBS to remain unofficial. This adds a great deal of strength to the comments that are posted here, and also makes it possible for empeg employees to post in a personal capacity without having to worry (too much) about company line.

Rob

What you just said, Rob, is incredibly cool and it reinforces the respect I have for you and your company. Awesome.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Well, as the number of people and posts gets bigger, reading the number of posts
would indeed be much faster on a real mailing list.
I'm hoping that more and more people continue considering this path and
subscribe to the mailing list versions of these groups:
http://empeg.merlins.org/

Marc

Message boards are inherently easier for some people to use, mailing lists are inherently easier for others. Personally, I subscribe to both, and actually enjoy the way the Empeg BBS is laid out as it presently stands (I liked it so much, I bought the software for a project I was working on myself )

Mailing lists, because they don't show immediate results in real-time (and you don't have a sense that "this message has already been replied to" tend to long and convoluted and torn off-track in several different directions. When that happens on a BBS, it is obvious to the user immediately, by looking at the threading tree at the bottom of the message they're reading.

Here's hoping the BBS stays just the way it is... albeit with more users.

D

i think you guys are being elitest. I know its hard to let other people join the club. But the Empeg just isnt for you or me. I welcome the larger user base. Because of the price point of the EMPEG , it still will be limited to hardcore enthusiast who i think will be easger to participate in this forum and stil be a size that it makes sense for personal interaction with the memberrs of the EMPEG team.


Empeg Kicks Ass
S/N 00203
http://www.iretro.com

HUH!?

Reread what I wrote. I WANT more users...how the hell is that elitist?

D

On Wed, May 10, 2000 at 06:38:16PM +0000, Derek Balling wrote:
> Message boards are inherently easier for some people to use, mailing lists

Actually it's not so much versatility as convenience. Logging into a BBS to
read discussions and waiting a second or more for each message is very
unconvenient for me. Doing this in my mailbox is way faster.

> Mailing lists, because they don't show immediate results in real-time (and
> you don't have a sense that "this message has already been replied to"

That's true, but in all fairness, most mailing lists don't have much
lag.
Did you use dialup BBSes?
Did you stay online while you were reading messages and answering them or
did you use an offline reader?
There was a day of lag or more with dialup BBSes, and people used offline
readers, and yet it worked better for most this way.

> Here's hoping the BBS stays just the way it is... albeit with more users. :-)

Well, you know what I'm hoping :-)

It's too bad that I can't feed the messages posted on the mailing list back
to the BBS because as the list membership grows, we'll have more posts to
the lists that the BBS users will never see.
If someone has a suggestion on how to make this work, I'm all ears (but no,
I'm not writing hundred of lines of code to log into the BBS with http
requests and simulate a post for each mailing list user :-D)

Marc
--

Check out the mailing list version of the BBS forums

> Did you use dialup BBSes?
> Did you stay online while you were reading messages and answering them or
> did you use an offline reader?

BBS offline readers allow users to post back into the message groups they're reading. They also maintain whatever threading is in operation (individual messageboards at least). The BBS email interface can't do this.

> It's too bad that I can't feed the messages posted on the mailing list back
> to the BBS because as the list membership grows, we'll have more posts to
> the lists that the BBS users will never see.

I'm concerned that the mailing list forwarder effectively splits the BBS because it can't insert replies back into the threads. I understood the email interface to be a facility for lurkers, or those who wished to conveniently monitor posts before logging in to respond to any topics of interest. My personal opinion is that if the mailing list service is to draw posts from the BBS then replying to the list should not be allowed. It may not be at all clear to those on the list that their comments are not being contributed to the BBS (or maybe they won't care - but it seems very selfish to me, taking content but giving nothing back).

There is already an independent mailing list that people can post to, and if it's not popular because it's on a commercial server then let me know and I'll set one up at empeg.com.

I find this threaded html BBS extremely convenient, and I'll be dissapointed if it eventually dies because posters migrate to the non-contributory email interface.

Rob

To each their own.
I mainly use the mail out. It is easier to see what the latest 24 hours of posts are and then call in to the BBS if there is anything to respond to.
I certainly find it easier than looking through the oceans of new posts. It also cuts down my net time.

____________________________
Murray

I mainly use the mail out. It is easier to see what the latest 24 hours of posts are . . .

I see your point and I'm quite happy with any method you find convenient to follow the discussions on this board. I'd rather directly connect to here so I can directly respond when I feel like it or raise something new. But, I admit that I also enjoy lurking the many discussions: have learned a lot just reading. As you said: "To each their own".

. . . and then call in to the BBS if there is anything to respond to.

Great, so we agree that the discussions should be kept on centre stage: here.
I'm worried that not everyone will find the way from the list to [here. It should be dead easy to dis-allow replies to the list / tell your readers to log-in here. Any chance that you will will do so; to encourage your readers to reply to the place where it matters?

Henno
# 00120

PS: What's your interest in MP3? Do you own an Empeg player, or any other MP3 player yet? Are you planning to have one?

The hardware I am running as a bit antiquated but is due
to be upgraded next time I go down to London to where
the server is hosted.

Currently its on a P90 with 32Meg and 1 gig of Disk Space.
The new server will be a PII 450 so things should be a
bit quicker!

I am currently looking at upgrading the BBS software to
the latest version. More news soon.

Cheers

Paul

I'd rather directly connect to here so I can directly respond when I feel like it or raise something new.


All of which you can do on a mail list, and all of which i find easier to do on a mail list. See a message you want to reply to? Just press Alt+R and instantly start typing, no waiting for a new 'compose message' web page to load.

>They also maintain whatever threading is in operation (individual messageboards at least).
> The BBS email interface can't do this.
Huh? Email readers handle threading easy. I'm on dozens of email lists, my mail reader (netscape) sorts each list into it's own folder and sorts the messages within each folder by thread. Even for the maillist version of this BBS where many of the messages are not directly replied to in a mail reader, but rather sucked out of a proprietary web BBS interface, netscape still handles the threading OK.

Yes, but how will the thread return to centre stage? Would Tony still be able to comment from the main BBS if I post in a mail list

Henno
# 00120

I think it has been well demonstrated that people DO want the BBS. A mailing list has been available for ages, and receives virtually no traffic at the moment. I don't believe for a moment that this is because the list is hosted by OneList (or whatever they're called now).

Conversely, people here are now donating money to upgrade the BBS software!

If the purpose of the new mailing gateway is to pull content from the BBS to gain popularity, and then to ultimately replace the BBS, I find that a little anti-social. It will also be very detrimental to the empeg community, as the BBS provides a great interface for new or potential owners to browse through the last year or so of conversation. A mailing list digest doesn't attract the same "drop in, have a browse, look a little deeper, get hooked" effect.

Rob

FWIW, Rob, I agree with you 100%. If this were strictly a "Technical Forum", then I'd say mailing list archives are the way to go, you can search them for your particular problem, etc. etc... but've got a COMMUNITY here, and I think that's much more useful.

D

On dim, mai 14, 2000 at 11:26:13 +0000, Rob Voisey wrote:
> BBS offline readers allow users to post back into the message groups
> they're reading. They also maintain whatever threading is in operation
> (individual messageboards at least). The BBS email interface can't do
> this.

That's very true and I deeply regret this, but it's not my fault if the
Email interface on the BBS is so limited.
(if you ask me, it's intentional: a commercial web based BBS has to use the
embrace and extend method, if it allowed full Email access without ever
logging in, it would be good for the software)

> I'm concerned that the mailing list forwarder effectively splits the BBS
> because it can't insert replies back into the threads. I understood the

Again, this is the last of my intents, but it's not my fault if the BBS
won't allow for this. BTW, it's not the mailing list that can't insert
replies back into the threads, it's the BBS that can't accept them (AFAIK)

> email interface to be a facility for lurkers, or those who wished to
> conveniently monitor posts before logging in to respond to any topics of
> interest. My personal opinion is that if the mailing list service is to
> draw posts from the BBS then replying to the list should not be allowed.

The mailing list will do whatever its subscribers decide. If they wish to
log into the BBS, try to find the post they want to answer and answer there,
they get to do it (provided they can find the thread on the BBS, I'm still
looking for it as I want to post my answer there).
If people decide they don't have the time or don't want to deal with it and
only reply to the original poster (provided his/her Email is known) and to
the subscribers of the list, that's their choice to.

> It may not be at all clear to those on the list that their comments are
> not being contributed to the BBS

I've made it clear on the http://empeg.merlins.org/ page

> (or maybe they won't care - but it seems very selfish to me, taking
> content but giving nothing back).

That's your point of view. How about people who can't follow threads on the
BBS for one of the following reasons:
- lack of time (I can tell you that as far as I'm concerned, if the threads
weren't ending up in my mailbox, there is no way I'd be able to read them.
That's the same reason why I'm two month behind on freshmeat reading)
- money (for those who pay for internet access by the minute, the BBS costs
many times more money (10 times? more?) than an Email feed
- No web access for one reason or another, or a connection so slow that
reading through the web page is way too time consuming

So, aren't BBS users cutting those people off by not posting to the onelist
that was there at the begining?
Can not referencing that mailing list in favor of the BBS, and therefore
more or less causing it to die, be regarded as selfish too?

> There is already an independent mailing list that people can post to, and
> if it's not popular because it's on a commercial server then let me know
> and I'll set one up at empeg.com.

It's not popular because all the discussions happen on the BBS, whether
people like it or not.
It's also not popular because neither empeg's web site or its newsletters
make any reference whatsoever to it among the list of links given.
If I go to the main page, I see "Check out the Unofficial Empeg Discussion
List - the best place to chat about the empeg!". That's all it says.
How do you expect anyone to know about that mailing list?

And now, it's pretty much too late, since everyone hangs out on the BBS, the
mailing list won't go anywhere. That's why I created my lists, because you
wouldn't be cut off the discussions if you subscribed.

> I find this threaded html BBS extremely convenient, and I'll be

That's where people disagree. I find it extremely unconvenient and I'm far
from being the only one, some other ones love it. Diversity is fine.

> I think it has been well demonstrated that people DO want the BBS. A

No. _some_ people do want the BBS. Some other ones hate it. I got several
Emails telling me how people loved the Email interface, despite all its
shortcomings (and I'll be the first one to admit that because of the
crippled feed provided by the BBS, my interface can't do miracles,
especially with regards to posters' Email addresses, or threads)

> mailing list has been available for ages, and receives virtually no
> traffic at the moment. I don't believe for a moment that this is because
> the list is hosted by OneList (or whatever they're called now).

I agree. The reasons are other, and I've already stated them.

> Conversely, people here are now donating money to upgrade the BBS software!

And people are telling me they love the Email interface too (actually I
wrote it in the first place after a couple of friends told me how they were
like me, and just couldn't follow the discussions on the BBS).

> If the purpose of the new mailing gateway is to pull content from the BBS
> to gain popularity, and then to ultimately replace the BBS, I find that a
> little anti-social. It will also be very detrimental to the empeg

My goal has never been to replace the BBS, I'd much rather have the BBS and
the mailing list cohabit.
However, as stated on my page, while my primary goal was to create something
I could read out of the digest blobs, if subscribers decide to create or
continue threads on the mailing list only, they're free to do so.
I have no intention to cripple mailman to prevent them from posting back.

If you see that as anti-social, how is forcing everyone to use a BBS with
clear shortcomings? Couldn't that be seen as anti-social too?


When I'm talking about cohabitation with the BBS, I'm sincere. If PaulH can
somehow suck messages back into his board, I'll be happy to provide him with
messages from the list and in a format much easier to deal with than the
digests that BBS puts out.
If his software can't do that, and because it cuts itself off by being
proprietary and closed, it can't get posts from the mailing lists, am I the
one to blame?

> community, as the BBS provides a great interface for new or potential
> owners to browse through the last year or so of conversation. A mailing
> list digest doesn't attract the same "drop in, have a browse, look a
> little deeper, get hooked" effect.

Mmmh, as you know mailman does have mail archives too:
http://empeg.merlins.org/archives/empeg-general/2000-May/thread.html

Sure, they're missing the pretty colors and icons that you'd have on the
BBS, but I not certain how that prevents the "drop in, have a browse, look a
little deeper, get hooked"
For that matter, I know people who saw the BBS and said "this looks cool,
but I'm not going to spend hours to click all over and read those threads"


On lun, mai 15, 2000 at 07:30:41 +0000, Henno Putto wrote:
> Great, so we agree that the discussions should be kept on centre stage:
> here. I'm worried that not everyone will find the way from the list to
> [here. It should be dead easy to dis-allow replies to the list / tell your
> readers to log-in here. Any chance that you will will do so; to encourage
> your readers to reply to the place where it matters?

I'm afraid no. I will leave them the liberty of choosing what they prefer.


And now I'm off clicking all over the BBS to find where to insert this
answer :-(
(great, I had to look 10mn for it because it was hidden as a subthread of
"Flood of users after Mark II Ships?" and there was no way to find it
without opening all the threads)

Marc

Check out the <A HREF=http://empeg.merlins.org/ target=n>the forum mailing lists</A>

I think the problem with the onelist/egroups maillist was that the BBS had already gained momentum. Whilst it was much more convenient than the BBS you missed out on all the great discussion going on. The new lists have both advatages, more convenient, and you get to listen in on the BBS discussion.

FWIW the maillist does archive the messages to a webpage so newcomers can drop in and browse old messages (Not as pretty as the BBS but much faster to browse)

Anyway, it's obvious there is demand for both. Ideally we'd be using a package like http://www.netwinsite.com/dnews.htm or http://www.teamware.com/ so that discussions can be bidirectional through both interfaces.

I think the problem with the onelist/egroups maillist was that the BBS had already gained momentum. Whilst it was much more convenient than the BBS you missed out on all the great discussion going on. The new lists have both advantages, more convenient, and you get to listen in on the BBS discussion.

FWIW the maillist does archive the messages to a webpage so newcomers can drop in and browse old messages (Not as pretty as the BBS but much faster to browse)

Anyway, it's obvious there is demand for both. Ideally we'd be using a package like http://www.netwinsite.com/dnews.htm or http://www.teamware.com/ so that discussions can be bidirectional through both interfaces.

You're obviously passionate about your predicament, and it appears as if the new software is missing an icon with a streaming tear.

Mike......................................(working on losing the "stranger" status)

Personally, I have to agree with him. Keeping up on this BBS is most annoying--don't assume everyone loves it. Just yesterday I was typing in a long note and when I submitted, it lost the message, and I had no way of getting it back. Partially, this is because all web browsers suck, however, that would never happen with a decent mail client.


Fly me to the moon...

Community? Don't you remember what USENET used to be like? How can you possibly say it has *anything at all* to do with the software?


Fly me to the moon...