(keying off of tanstaafl's recent HOA/Beagle post I thought I'd post this tale of Pat and Leslie....)

Pat: I can't stand listening to that dog bark anymore! It's nonstop! 24 hours a day out on their deck barking. And it barked all through our open house. How will we ever sell this place?

Leslie: I know, I know! It kept me up all night. Well, I mentioned it to Jan (dog-owning neighbor) and Jan said they took the dog to a trainer but it didn't do any good.

Pat: You can't just take the dog to the trainer. You have to reinforce the training! They just put the pooch out on the deck and ignore it!

Leslie: Well, Jan said they don't hear the dog bark that much and they don't see what the big deal is. Jan, said "It can't be bothering you *that* much! Get a life!"

Pat: Of course it doesn't bother *them*! They have central air conditioning!. It's too bad, but I think we just need to kill the dog. I can think of a painless, humane way to do it and that won't be traceable to us. It'll look like a natural death.

Leslie: Pat, you can't do that! That is sneaky! It's dishonest!

Pat: And the alternative is what?

Leslie: Well, we could go over tomorrow evening and talk with them.

Pat: Well, they don't seem to think they are causing a problem, so I think the chances of them acknowledging our concern is probably zilch. What did Jan say? "Get a life"? Sheesh!

Leslie: No, I think if we are polite and make our points calmly, they'll understand. They have to! And if they continue to ignore this, we can go talk with town hall and see if we can get them to deal with it.

Pat: The people at town hall are useless. Plus, if we go next door and make a big deal about this or if we file a complaint at town hall, we're stuck! We *couldn't* kill the dog then. They'd know it was us and we'd have the sheriff out here! I say let's just keep this to ourselves and fix the problem without tipping our hand.

It's only half the dog's fault that it's barking. If it's truly outside 24 hours a day, call the local SPCA and cite improper shelter, etc.

It's a tough balance between not tipping your hand and not starting one of those inexcapable neighbor wars. Stupid neighbors.....

Simple answer that has no dishonesty involved:

Most towns have laws against barking dogs, with very specific and reasonable time limits on how long the dog can bark before it is considered a lawbreaker. You file a complaint form for each incident that you hear the dog barking. With each complaint, the dog owners get an escalating warning from the local dog pound, which is usually enough for reasonable suburban families and takes care of the problem. But if it escalates enough, the pound gets corroboration from neighbors, observes the situation, and eventually picks up the dog and hangs onto it. At that point the predictable set of events plays out.

I know this because I've filled out the forms in Nevada County, CA. Fortunately, it worked on the second escalation, and the neighbors took care of the problem before pooch got the gas chamber.

This logical counter-argument, which I first saw in the Life Science Library book "Mathematics", is perhaps not wholly serious but is too germane not to share.

Peter

Given Doug's story, I just kind of picked a barking dog as a plausible plot device....




The "tipping your hand part" was more what I was getting at. I have another story with no dog involved that I should add....

Now this is an answer with no dishonesty involved, but, if we stick with the barking dog scenario, let's assume for the sake of argument that you know that appealing to local authority won't produce the result you want (say the sheriff is on the take or incompetent). How about one of your neighbors *is* the sheriff.

Are you forthright? Go complain?

If you are honest and approach your neighbors reasonably and rationally, will it work? Do you identify more with Pat or Leslie?

That's pretty good. I just hope that "proove" hasn't joined "loose" in the Internet Dictionary

Once upon a time, I might have said pooch gets a meal of steak a la strychnine, but as I've gotten older and calmer, i've found that it's better for everyone involved if I just talk to the people rationally then escalate to authorities.

I've been in a similar situation that resolved itself to my satisfaction: When living in an apartment, I got awakened at 6:30 each morning by the honking of a horn. Mommy dropped off baby at grandmas each day, two doors down, and honked and waved at baby through the window as she left. It got so that the sound of her car approaching was enough to wake me. One day I put on my robe and blocked her exit from the parking lot, confronting her about it politely. The following day she decided to be unreasonable an lean on the horn as she passed my house. So I took a stroll over to granmas and had a chat. Grandma was contrite, but when the horn happened on the third day, the landlord was paid a visit. The moving truck appeared that weekend. Seems the landlord did not take kindly to Grammy running an unlicensed daycare in the apartment...

Since when is taking care of your grandchild considered unlicensed day care?

Wow, if that's what you do when you're talking to people rationally then I'd hate to see you over-react to something!

Peter

At least he put on a robe.

But it was California and I have to think Tony remained quite chilled. That whole Lebowski phase he went through.

OK, take two. A bit contrived, no risk to any animals, and some loopholes closed with respect to legal recourse:

Pat: I can't take those mercury vapor security lamps anymore! Anytime soemthing as big as a field nmouse gets close to their property line, eighteen lights come on for 30 minutes! We used to be able to sit on our deck during the summer, but not anymore. It's like a baseball stadium! We lived here for 15 years before those rich louts moved in!

Leslie: I know, I know! When they come on at night they light up the whole bedroom. And the humming! But we can't close the windows in summer! I mentioned it to Jan (light-owning neighbor) and Jan said they had their designer look at the lights and they say everthing is within specification and county code.

Pat: Well, the county code is useless. It doesn't say anything about mercury vapor floodlights or light levels! Of course they just fall back on that lame "county code" thing!

Leslie: Well, Jan said they don't notice the lights that much and they don't see what the big deal is. Jan, said "It can't be bothering you *that* much! Get a life!"

Pat: Of course! The lights are pointed at *us* not *them*. It's too bad, but I think I'm just going to have to do something about the lights. I can think of a way to short the electrical feeds to the light poles that will just look like faulty wiring; That should knock the lights out until the end of summer at least!

Leslie: Pat, you can't do that! That is sneaky! It's dishonest!

Pat: And the alternative is what?

Leslie: Well, we could go over tomorrow evening and talk with them.

Pat: Well, they don't seem to think they are causing a problem, so I think the chances of them acknowledging our concern is probably zilch. What did Jan say? "Get a life"? Sheesh!

Leslie: No, I think if we are polite and make our points calmly, they'll understand. They have to! And if they continue to ignore this, we can tell them we're going to go talk with a lawyer and either get the county code changed or sue them.

Pat: The last initiative to change that part of the code failed and, the people on the county council are corrupt, and we'd probably have to sue! That could cost us 80 grand! Plus, if we go next door and make a big deal about this or if we file a complaint with the county, we're stuck! We *couldn't* knock out the lights then. And if anything bad happened by coincidence, they would just assume it was us and sic their lawyers on us. Thay have pleanty of dough for lawyers I say let's just keep this to ourselves and fix the problem without tipping our hand.

My next door neighbor at my old house had exact this: a very bright streetlight sort of thing that shone directly in our bedroom window. I bought "blackout blinds" (cellular blinds that have foil inside, so light simply doesn't get through). That was sufficient to make it livable from my bedroom, although it was far from ideal.

I did talk to my old neighbors about this several times. They basically weren't amendable to doing anything.

As a long-term measure, I planted some trees in the way, that would eventually have blocked the light. I sold the place before they got big enough to do much good. Next time I'm faced with something like that, I'll be bringing in bamboo or something else that grows really, really fast.

What about solving the problem by counterattacking? I.e. with the dog barking you find a dog that barks louder and more often or blast your stereo until the neighbors complain, then come to an agreement. With the mercury lights you buy bigger brigther lights and aim them at their window. Eventually the neighbors see the light and have to call a truce. Is this effective?

I think most of the people on this BBS are smart enough to see the folly in that.

True, but still, it would be fun!

Now, I was just trying to come up with another generic "neighbor" problem that didn't involve harming any dogs. Dogs are some of my *favorite* people. Some of my best friends are dogs.

So, I guess it isn't about barking dogs or bright lights, but about what you do when confronted by a (neighbor or other) problem where you have a choice to be honest and frank as against taking less forthright action (when it looks like any other typical recourse through the law or regulation won't help). Certainly some of this has to do with your estimate of the "neighbors".

So, I am more curious, do folks identify with Pat or with Leslie?

I'd say I'm more of a passive aggressive. I'd be much more likely to complain, and keep on complaining to the local government.