I just bought a Logitech Harmony 900 universal remote, and, overall, I think it is a remarkable device. It is very effective and flexible, and, so far, I could go as far as I needed in terms of fine tuning for my home theatre system.

One strange thing I noticed is that when I connect my remote via USB to my PC, it is detected as "RemoteControl USB LAN LINK #2" . So, LAN?! Well, in spite of this, it all works, so, so far, I postponed any further investigation.

Today, though, Harmony Remote Software 7.7.0 started to be very slow.
At the same time, my firewall detected an "unknown network) and was blocking traffic to/form it. Such unknown network, seems to be exactly that: RemoteControl USB LAN LINK #2 .
So, I go and check and there is in fact a new LAN connection on my PC... to my Logitech remote! My PC is 169.254.1.1 / 255.255.0.0 , gateway being 169.254.0.1 .

Does anyone know what's going on? It seems Logitech software is using some TCP/IP based method to connect remote to PC, and actually creating a LAN to that purpose?! Of course, this is rightfully upsetting my firewall.

Logitech's Harmony software is browser-based (even their "stand-alone" app) so it's not inconceivable that it talks to the small USB driver component over TCP/IP.

... and it turns out, the errors are being caused by Logitech. It seems Logitech servers have been having issues for the last hours/days. So, it is impossible currently to operate any cfg change to my remote.

On their forums, users are quite unhappy. Including myself.

I don't like that the harmony control software depends entirely on Logitech servers (--> the Internet) to work. So silly. Leaving aside the inconvenience this causes to users, what benefit is there for Logitech? What am I missing?

It's more difficult for someone to steal their IR database.

But mainly, they can maintain a central database making sure that all customers have the same (and up to date) codes and configurations to choose from - this simplifies support tremendously.

It also means that they can easily make changes to customer remote configs remotely to help someone.

Beyond that, if you want a very good universal remote where you will be responsible for essentially programming it, including logic, then you can look at Universal Remote Control's (URC) Complete Control series. Expect price to start at USD $400 per handset when you buy from an authorized, but discounted, dealer Normal price would be around $650 for what such a dealer would sell for $400, un-programmed, or around $900+ fully configured for your home theater by a custom installer.

I can imagine so many ways to do this (local copies of the needed IR codes, easily kept in synch, for one, or even simply used as a backup in such cases where you don't have an internet connection), without compromising much more relevant aspects of the user experience.

Having an >>entirely<< could-dependant software for this specific purpose - programming your local remote - is just not a good idea.

I can't even change the order activities appear on the remote, or change an icon, or rearrange them. None of this can be done, even though they don't need to access their DB. The software just won't pass the "checking network connection" stage.

Hopefully the hundreds of unhappy customers on their forums will make Logitech reconsider their approach to Harmony Remote Software, and 7.7.1 will be user-centered rather than Logitech-centered.

I so dislike to be dependent on the clound when it is not strictly necessary.

That will never happen. Because for the hundreds of unhappy customers on their forums, there are tens of millions who don't care.



Logitech bought Harmony for over US $20 Million primarily for their cloud-based configuration and back-end.

All the logic for the remotes is stored on their web servers. When you update the remote, you're not actually storing simple codes on the remote, but a complete set of logic for your configuration.

Sure, they could put the whole thing into a piece of software that runs on your PC. But then they'd have to write that from scratch. And a Mac version. They've barely done anything to update their software in the past 8 years, so something like this would be completely unprecedented for them.

It really sounds to me like you'd be infinitely happier with a Complete Control product from URC. Logitech remotes are not really for the person who wants to really customize their control experience. They're meant for the average joe. Even though using their web software is most definitely far too complicated for the the average joe.

Well, I don't think anyone in the market considers Logitech Harmony as remotes for the average joe, nor I thnik Logitech intend to be perceived as such. I think instead that Logitech is simply chosing a strategy rather than another, and they are now witnessing one seriously weak point in it.
Hopefully, since cloud-based does not mean cloud-based only, Logitech will evolvetheir software in the"right" directlion.

Thanks for mentioning URC. I'll give them a look. Do you own URC products?

I disagree. I think that's exactly how they're seen and I'm 100% positive that's exactly how Logitech wants them to be seen. They want to sell the Harmony to the guy/gal picking up their first flat screen at Best Buy. They want to be touted as the only universal remote that the average Joe can program (whether that's true or not is another story).

To repeat my position, which I've stated many times on this board: I do not like the Harmony remotes (primarily because of their software), and swear only by the use of discrete codes.

This is no help, really, but I've used low-end URC remotes as blank slates when setting up clients with a universal remote. I use an old Philips Pronto TS1000 to program a URC WR7 or R6 learning remote, and I've been impressed with the build quality of the URC remotes. Plus they have good backlighting, which I think is underrated in the remote control world...

Matt is absolutely correct about Logitech's positioning of the Harmony line. They bought the company to mainstream it back in 2004. Their intention was to drive the price down and offer a range from about $50 and currently up to many times that ($500+).

But, the software is a huge stumbling block. I gave one of my old Harmony models to a friend who is very much an average joe and he gave up on it within about a week. So instead he continues to use 4 or so different remotes. He's the kind of person that really needs something professionally set up by a custom installer, but there's no way he'd ever pay for it.

And yes, I currently have a number of URC products, but I'm using an MX-980 at the moment. I also own a few (4?) different Harmony remotes and two Philips Prontos.

I see no mention of the One4All range here, I found ours quite simple to setup and that was a few years ago, current range looks much smarter

The one4All stuff is pre-programmed, not programmable. Nor are they activity based unless you hack them via JP1 connection.

How do you define pre-programmed? I had to get it to learn functions for my slimp3 and decided which keys should do "shuffle", "brightness" etc. Also had to do a bit of wotrk to get the Sky+ going as they didn't have all the functions included in the original code.

I suppose the issue is that there are different levels of "programmability."

Not-programmable:

The remote you get with your bluray player often cannot be programmed to control other components, and they don't assume you want to. They want to ship something with the product that will at the very least let you control it from your couch, and will cost them as little as possible to include in the packaging.

Pre-programmed:

Some remotes, like the ones that come with your cable box, give you the ability to control other devices like your TV or DVD player. These will come with a booklet of codes and a procedure for entering them. You don't get to choose which buttons do what, you just get what it gives you.

Learning remote:

Most of these have the codes of the pre-programmed remote, but also let you chose which buttons do what if you learn from another remote. Most remotes included with components do not have this, but if you go to any electronics store and see a Sony universal remote (like this $20 one), those can usually be taught codes from another remote.

The only problem with these is that's all you can do with them: teach from another remote you already have. If you loose that remote you either get stuck with the pre-programmed codes or nothing at all. Also, so far all the remotes I've mentioned have limitations to things like macro controls.

Fully-programmable:

Even here there are different degrees. The Harmony One, for example, is nothing like a Philips Pronto (no longer sold), but it costs a lot less. These allow higher levels of programming and customizability, and much more advanced macros.

For example, when I was setting up my Philips Pronto TS1000, I wanted to use discrete codes so that my macros would work with 100% accuracy. If someone walks in front of my remote while it's sending the codes and only half my components receive the commands, I just have to hit the same button again and everything will get to where I want it no matter what state anything is in. To do this I had to translate hex codes found online and edit them into the component's button configuration. Despite how good I think that $20 Sony remote is, I can't do that with them.


As I said in my first post, I'll often use learning remotes in conjunction with my Pronto in order to make them a lot smarter than they would be otherwise, but I have to have the smarter remote to begin with.

OK, so this OFA remote says it's learning and does macros.

Yup, that would fall into that third category I listed, the learning remotes. Many of these will do macros, like the Sony I linked to or the URC remotes I mentioned earlier, the WR7 and the R6.

Really, for most people that's the most remote you'll need, but to do what I was talking about in my macros, you'll need something that gives you a little more "tweakability."

*edit*
It looks like in the US, those remotes are carried under the "Accoustic Research" brand. Amazon link

Wow, I am surprised about what Bruno and Matt say, as nobody i've heard of would consider a 150 Euro remote to be connected to a PC stuff for the average joe. Indedeed they are marketed here as easily set up, and actually I would agree with that, but easily set up does not at all mean for the average joe, both in terms of device type, and in terms of price.

I may agree that Logitech is trying to attract as a wide market as possible, but that also does not imply average joe.

In any case, URC looks very interesting and indeed more high end than Harmony.

Bruno, since you own URC remotes, which one would best match Harmony 900, in particular in terms of:

1. Including IR repeater + RF to be used in closed cabinets
2. Several hard, physical buttons + software ones, but mostly physical ones to replicate as much as possible the concept of a classic remote.

And also, if you had to pick a URC model for a home theatre system including HTPC, SAT box, TV, AV Receiver, Xbox, Wii, DB/SACD player, which one would you get, ideally?

... and of course, thanks for all recommendations!

Many URC models old and new have the repeaters and hard plus soft buttons. The MX-880 and MX-980 have color screens. The 980 is by far more programmable and has a ton more features and a ton more memory. It's the one I use and the one I'd recommend, even if the hard key layout could use some improvement.

At this time there is no remote on the market for which I couldn't offer a number of suggestions for improvement.

The URC stuff is most definitely not easy to set up. The software is quite powerful, but it has a learning curve. I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out, it's not that difficult, but to really maximize the setup you do have to be creative in your thought process, since you'll be manually setting up a lot of what Harmony does automatically (tracking device on/off states, etc.. Setting variables, etc..)

Ha! I agree, and feel I also neglected to express that

The perfect universal remote does not exist yet. I'm not sure there's even the "extremely good" universal remote. They all have serious flaws.

I'm hoping to see more home theater automation built in, now that HDMI seems to be helping to create a common interconnect that firewire failed to do. MHL has a newer control protocol built in with cross manufacturer support, and HDMI 1.3a also has a pretty extensive lists of cross manufacturer commands.

A friend of mine picked up a new Sony TV recently, and added it to his older Sony receiver. If you grab a PS3 controller and turn on the Playstation, the TV and receiver also come on, and switch to the appropriate inputs.

I've used both the One4All remotes, and the Logitech harmony remote, and I like them both for different reasons.

There was a long discussion about this on the BBS a while back, shortly after I got my first Harmony remote.

I still think the Harmony remote is a better remote, and the concepts of activity-based programming, and keeping the "state" of devices without discretes, is superior.

However, the user interface for programming the Harmony is abysmal, and I'd love to see more hackability like the One4All units, both with and without JP1.

I think I'll try one of the OFA remotes and the L5/iPad combos I don't really know how advanced my needs are really, all seems quite simple to me but I know it won't be when I try and set it up.

Okay, I'm officially pissed off at URC. I was installing a new bluray player for a client, and also a URC R6 remote. Apparently the remote is completely incapable of controlling the Samsung BD-D6500 bluray player. None of the device codes worked (the ones in the book or supplied by customer support), and I couldn't even get the remote to learn the commands sent by the device's remote! What the hell? I was able to get the R6 to understand the "up" command for the d-pad, but none of the others worked. Weird. And annoying. Bluray isn't even mentioned in the product manual.

Anyway, I eventually set the client up with a Harmony. It works fine, but I still want discrete codes. Frankly, it's in Logitech's best interest for device manufacturers to start offering publicly available discrete codes to their devices. The way the Harmony remote works, the end user doesn't even have to know the codes are there. All they need to know is that everything works every time.

Maybe you shouldn't install Samsung garbage for your clients? That's my take on this. I wouldn't touch anything from Samsung with a 10-foot pole as they say (other than components used in other brands).

Did you happen to check Remote Central to find out if there's anything especially funky about those codes BTW? Hunting for discretes is pretty easy if you want to spend a little time with DecodeIR and MakeHex.

I'm not always the one choosing the components. That said, it's a pretty nice bluray player, and I really don't see this as evidence of a bad product.


I wasn't looking for for discrete codes. I was simply trying to learn the codes from the bluray player's remote, and none of them would learn. Frankly, I've gotten frustrated by the Remote Central forums. I can't tell you how many times I've searched that place for an answer, only to find a thread about the exact same topic with no resolution.

And forget their file database. It's horribly outdated...

It's possible that the newer blu-ray player uses high frequency infrared codes. Many universal remotes, as well as many IR extenders, do not support the new high-frequency devices. I'm unable to find a cite for this, though.

And yes, lack of Discretes is a pain.

High Frequency IR for consumer electronics has mostly been the domain of useless Bang and Olufsen components and other marginal market products thankfully. Given that Matt was able to get the Harmony remote to work, it's not likely the Samsung are using these types of codes - they Harmony line is doesn't support these higher frequencies as I recall. Certainly not on its learning sensor.

It's more likely that it was simply a protocol that the preset URC didn't recognize or a mod to an existing protocol with the same result.

Here's what I don't get: why not re-use codes? Most manufacturers do this, where the "play" button code is the same for a long line of models, like every VCR a certain company would make for five years.

For example, why not use DVD codes for your bluray players? Chances are, a user is not going to have a DVD player and a bluray player in the same system*, so just use the same codes! The bluray player will probably have additional buttons, but you could just add on to the old set.

*I should observe here that half my customers do not know that bluray players will play DVDs.

Matt, I've looked at enough code libraries to leave these manufacturer's decisions as a total mystery. The best I can come up with is that the people at these companies are so varied that they don't communicate with each other and certainly there's a communication breakdown from team to team and generation to generation (of product lines).

I'd be interested in decoding some of those signals to find out what they are. If you have any working pronto format codes send them along.

According to this netflix discrete command on Remote Rentral, the protocol is a 36bit Samsung. I'm not sure how common it is, but Samsung also have a 20bit format. This one is at 38kHz while the 20bit is 38.4kHz - close enough that the device and universals wouldn't care either way.

That BD player uses the same codes as pretty much every other Samsung BD player (URC codeset DVD 352). I have the model listed among many in the editor software for my URC. It looks like the commands included are those from the remote. I can generate pronto hex for all possibilities for you if you're interested in trying to find any working commands that aren't listed.

Thanks, Bruno. I think I'll skip it and make sure my clients aren't going with that brand/model in the future.

What bluray players are recommended these days?

I think what frustrates me so much about remote control codes and the whole universal space is that it really seems to me like everything doesn't HAVE to be so complicated. There are better ways to do these things, and we certainly have the technology, but no improvements have been made. All we have instead are fancy ways to deal with the needlessly complicated mess.

Sony Playstation 3.

I'm serious. It is a perfectly good blu-ray player, provided you get one of several available adapters that lets you use an infrared remote with it. It has great 1080p HDMI output, and digital optical output in several selectable bitstream formats as well. Because, as a current-gen gaming system, it's meant to be internet-connected at all times, it can do the Blu-ray thing of getting updates from the internet. For example, there was a new standard for 3D blu-ray that came out in April 2010, and an OS update for the PS3 made it compatible with that standard. There's also an upcoming standard for higher capacity blu-ray discs that supposedly will also be supported by the PS3 via an upgrade. (cite)

Its price is very similar to stand-alone BD players, but with this one you can play Little Big Planet and the Uncharted series on it.

Okay, I knew that was coming While I have no doubt the PS3 is still one of - if not the - best bluray players around. But that's a hard sell to a client.

Besides, while it's in the price range of some bluray players, there are plenty of internet-connected models out there - including from Sony - for $100 less. Plus, I'd need to get one of those IR adapters in order to get it to work with a universal remote anyway

But in principal, I agree with you. I'd go with a PS3 if I were in the right situation. Personally, I went with the Sony Google TV bluray player, and it actually works really, really well...

For quality, I see Oppo is highly recommended, though I have no experience with them myself. It's what I would buy if I was in the market however. Or a PS3 for the reasons Tony mentioned. Can't really go wrong at $250 (tops) for a PS3. The IR adapters at $100 are a little pricy though.

Sorry to bring the thread back up. I have a question for the Harmony users here:

I'm starting to get a number of clients that really like their smart TVs (for some reason). How does Harmony interact with these sets?

I'm very experienced with the Harmony line, but don't have a Smart TV. However, I'd expect it's the same as setting up the Harmony for any multimedia device like a streamer. You'll get an assortment of commands to do pretty much everything that's on the original remote, minus of course things that may be handled by proprietary RF or Bluetooth, such as mouse and keyboard functions.

I wouldn't anticipate any problems setting up a Harmony for any of the current TVs, with the caveat that the owner may need to use the original remote as a keyboard if so-equipped and required.

No, no bluetooth or RF (I would figure those would be out), and the original remote has no particularly unusual buttons, aside from the button that brings up the TV's "smart" features like its built in apps.

I guess I'm asking if it's possible to make a custom macro to get it to control this stuff in the TV.

Also, I had a client ask me about a possible Harmony remote with a keyboard built in. I told him I hadn't heard of such a product, and I can't seem to find any mention of one, but have you heard of it? I wouldn't be surprised if he was confusing it with some other remote, but I thought I'd ask...

Harmony macros are kinda lame; they can only be something like five commands long, and you can't chain them.

The cheater way to make a Harmony Macro is to make it on another remote and then learn it with the Harmony. The Logitech software and remotes themselves don't have custom macros - at least not in any version I've ever used.

Logitech will be releasing a remote with a keyboard this year. It's been leaked on a few sites. Model 800. For keyboard it uses Logitech's unified receiver - it also has a touch screen which can be used as a trackpad. It's a kind of square-ish looking thing with a somewhat ugly keyboard. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1398964

Unfortunately it looks like the remote side of things may be a bit weak though. Not many specialised buttons for various functions e.g. the red, yellow, blue, green buttons are used by my cable TV PVR. Custom ones on the LCD are clunky.

Even my old Harmony 785 is sometimes a bit short on buttons. Fortunately it has six soft buttons to a page compared with the new ones which seem to be going to 3.

Also I have a smart TV and I have the special QWERTY remote. I rarely use the smart stuff at all - I just use my laptop. It's not quite there for me. A bit slow and I will have TV on whilst using the laptop frequently. I guess most here would use their laptop or tablet for a lot of smart TV functionality.

Harmony remote generally have crap layouts, that's for sure. Dedicated page buttons? Ridiculous.

But having dedicated color buttons is generally lame as well today, since they were originally for teletext. Now used by some cable companies, the will usually have a specific functionality attached to them, that might be better implemented on another button. EDIT: Or functionality that can be achieved through on-screen navigation/UI (as is the case for some Sky features)

It's a shame that they're used at all since they're a usability nightmare - colorblindness, no indication of function, etc.

But lack of the colored buttons is the least of the concerns with that fugly Harmony.



The only correct way to do smart TV is with IP control, so you can use the tools you mentioned above.

The coloured buttons are vital in the UK. The Sky satellite boxes use the coloured buttons are various places in the programme guide.

You really can't use the PVR functionality without them and what the buttons do depends entirely on context. So there would be no way of tying the functionality to anything other than a set of four coloured buttons.

Crap, but true.

On the plus side, the native Sky remote is the best designed remote I've ever handled. It has such a well chosen layout and variety of button sizes/shapes. So much better than the average remote.

Agreed, it really is good

You can always use the redundant (to SKY) buttons, SKIP, REPLAY, PAGE_UP and PAGE_DOWN as the colored buttons on a universal that has them (all Harmony models):

I don't need to, my Harmony remote has the four coloured buttons. My point was that having the coloured would be completely unworkable in the case of controlling a UK Sky box.

You'd need a cheat sheet of some sort, telling you which colour or function mapped to which button depending on which screen you were in !

I guess you didn't look at the image I linked. I'll edit the post to show it inline if possible. The owner of the remote actually applied some paint to his Harmony One.

I saw the image, I saw the red and blue buttons, I saw what I thought was a odd reflection (the yellow button), I didn't see a green button. I guess you can sum that up as, I failed...

My best guess is that he posted the picture before painting the green one under the yellow. The image was linked in a forum where the author was discussing re-purposing those buttons and the little paint mod.

Planning such a remote is a delicate balance and the worst thing to do is add more buttons to try and cover absolutely every permutation of every device. With the Harmony, they include a number of buttons which are themselves niche at best, such as the page Up/Down, so it makes some sense to re-purpose those first. I mean, I can't recall seeing a device that didn't use the channel buttons for page_up and down where appropriate, making the dedicated buttons completely superfluous in 99.9% of setups.

With their latest keyboard remote it doesn't look like much planning went into it honestly. It looks really slapped together and uncomfortable. I'm sure it will del into the millions though because Logitech has that ability with almost anything. Revue excepted

I have. Satellite tuners occasionally use them to skip pages at a time in the channel list.

I've also seen it several times. That said, I agree that it's stupid.

Sure, I've seen that too. But on every box I've ever used, DIshNetwork/Bell/Echostar (4 different models) plus Starchoice (Scientific Atlanta and Motorola) and DirecTV, the Channel UP/DOWN buttons also did the same thing.