OK, I know you gonna yell at me that my buttons are sticky or such but read on:

After going to 10 the volume thing completely disappeared for me until this morning when it happened again. No big deal, I can live with that if it is happening once a week, I just wanted to let you know.

What is AGAINST the theory of a mechanical fault:

The number of times the bug happens changes with software upgrades. If it would be a hardware thing, it wouldn't change with software.
I can feel the 'click' of the button all the time.
The button got space around it in the front-panel. I can move it around in the hole.
If the button would stick, it would move through the menus by itself. That doesn't happen.

As I have said, I can live with that, it's just I want to let you know it not completely gone. BTW, there is no sun here, just rain...

Cheers, J.

This happened to me twice today as well.

Luckily the volume was going down at the time, so there was no problem.

Empeg folks, any ideas?

Paul.

Paul Haigh, 6GB, Blue
Reg: 4120 - Serial 00254

It's been bothering me for a while that there seemed to be some discrepancy in reports over the infamous "volume bug." When I first whined about it, I noted that the system became unresponsive to input and I had to physically remove the unit to restore sanity. Some of the posters looked askance at me (I know who you are; I can see you), and said that they didn't see that behavior. Rob made an off-the-cuff remark to the effect of "well, just turn down the volume" that floored me because it seemed so out of line with my perceptions.

I finally figured out where these discrepancies are coming from, and was able to verify by fiddling with the unit.

Whenever I need to adjust the volume while I am driving, my first preference is always to use the remote. Making a slight adjustment in volume can be an exercise in timing using the four-button layout. Hold the button too long, and it gets too loud; release the button too soon, and it skips to the next track and I lose my place in the song. The one function that I always use on the four-button panel is the top button, the pause button. It is elegant in its simplicity. If I am pulling into my neighborhood late at night with the top open, or if I need to concentrate more on the road for a minute, I just reach out and jab the top button.

Yesterday, I was driving around, didn't have my remote on me, and I gots to crank the Metallica. So I sucked it up and used the panel to increase the volume, and the volume bug kicked in. I instinctively did the same thing that I do if I accidentally hold the "increase volume" button too long, which is to start pressing the left button. The volume went down, and the problem was averted before I it really registered with me that I had encountered the volume bug. Like Rob said, not a serious problem.

Now let me recreate what happened the first time I encountered the volume bug.

I was driving, my wife was in the passenger seat, she had the remote, I was hitting next track on the console. One of us triggered the volume bug. This was before Empeg had programmed in the overdrive cap, so the unit when merrily on its way to +10.0db while we were heading 40mph down the street.

Each of us, obviously, began frantically messaging the unit to cut it out. My wife was repeatedly hitting the "down" button on the remote control, and I was mashing the PAUSE button on the console, because that is my instinctive reaction when I am trying to mute the box. When that didn't work, my next step was to start mashing on the down button in the hope that I could navigate the menus to "Power Off" (as I said, I am not a frequent user of the volume controls on the console, and it is hard to think very clearly when your skull is melting on a busy city street).

Here is the problem: when the volume display is up, the top and bottom buttons do not pause the track or bring up the menus -- they simply take you out of the volume display. Once you are out of the volume display, the top and bottom buttons should start workng as normal. But my wife and I were cancellng each other out. She would keep hitting a "down volume" button which would bring up the display, and then I would cut her off by hitting the top or bottom button before she could get any "momentum" on the down volume. But she would bring the volume display back up again before I could get the track to pause.

A freak situation? Maybe, but it was genuinely dangerous and I could see it happening to other users. It seems like much more serious lawsuit fodder than the silly infotext/visual business.

So my suggestion would be to allow the pause button to work even with the volume display up. Pause should bring down the volume display, but it should also pause the track without necessitating an additional button push. This should provide a good additional safety measure, since the "volume bug" seems particularly hard to ferret out and may never be entirely fixed on the Mark I units.

Thanks,
Corby
6-Gig Blue, SN#320

The only problem with this is that just about everywhere the top button means "exit from this menu", so if any button was used in the volume display to mute it would probably have to be the bottom button. Let's face it, when it comes down to it we just don't have enough buttons, roll on Mk2...

__
Unit serial number 47 (was 330 in the queue)...

One thing - you don't need to negotiate to "power off". You get this by pressing and holding the top button (not sure if this one is in the current manual, though...)

Hugo

I revert. I cannot and do not accept this bug anymore. My g-friend got hit by it. I was under the impression it got fixed with 10 or does only happen very very seldom, but it happend three times on the weekend, again, and it happened while she was in the car without me and without having the proper 'instructions'.

What I'm doing in 'emergency' situations like this, I pull off the whole thing.
I can't afford to have my new sub blown by the Empge AGAIN (it blew one already). Come one guys. This is nothing anyone wants. I cannot give my car to my g-friend or anyone since I don't want to explain to her what to do in emergency situations with the CAR RADIO. And I don't want to explain it again with every software release ("OK, it might be save to listen to music now, I think these guys fix the volume thing now, you know, I'm on *10* now...but hey, if it is happening to you AGAIN just PULL OUT the radio real quick, here is how....but promise me NOT to thow it out of the window...or, better do so so we get rid of the problem once and forever.") Belive that. There are not only nerds and geeks like us around in the world which tolerate things like that. Just imagine if EMPEG would be SONY, what would you think would happen ? And, if you think about that on U.S. cars there is a printing on the back-mirror needed on how to OPERATE IT since someone has been sued for that, then empeg is a big candidate for that (not that I like that U.S. practice to sue everyone for everything, but you SELL that thing there - personally, I wouldn't because of that).

I'm tolerated to replace my sub cause of the volume bug (@ my cost) once. I will not tolerate it again, and for sure I will not tolerate if someone else who is driving my car gets into trouble because of that.

Any, who is guarantee us that this story does not continue witht he MKII ? If this does not continue with the MKII I think it should be treated as a bug fix. You wouldn't be the first company who would provide hardware upgrades to customers since 'revision one' is buggy. Please consider that, at least for the guys who cannot get around the volume bug. I'm p****d!

Thanks anyways - I still think it's a great thing and you are great guys but hey. Jo.

I really understand your frustration. I hope that the problem gets fixed with the volume knob, but if not, we'll hear about it REAL fast. Because if the knob just simulates button-presses, then there's gonna be a whole bunch of button-presses getting fed into these units.

I had a strange thought related to this bug. Since I use the remote mostly, I don't get hit by the bug. But I was thinking about the period when these bug started to get reported...

You don't happen to be running a recompiled kernel, do you? You know, to do something unusual at bootup, like showing an alternate logo or running your own program?

I'm not making an accusation, just fishing for possible commonalities in the bug reports.

As far as the Empeg folks are concerned, I'm sure they're just as anxious to get the bug fixed as you are. It would really suck if the Mark2's had this problem. So try not to be so hard on 'em- they're counting on your bug reports to help them find its cause.

Tony Fabris
Empeg #144

Firstly, I've never seen the bug, but that's because I use a second head unit as the volume control..

However, I've thought of a possible feature that would help in the absence of a fix for this volume run bug..

Some high performance cars have a "Valet Key" feature, which lowers the engine power output when Valet parking (or lending the car to friends etc). It occurs to me that in the situation when your g-friend borrows the car, a similar feature would be useful.

Basically, empeg could add a menu option in the sound menu for Volume limit, which brings up a screen with 2 options, a setting for off (no limit) and a second setting which is the level the volume will not go above (which you can change via the buttons)..

If the volume bug strikes, it will hit the hard limit, and stop... So no blown speakers... Also, because it's just a setting, you don't have to rebalance the gains on all your amps, and full volume is available if required...

It could also be useful in the situation when you are driving your drunk friends home from a club at 2am, and they keep turning the volume up full... =)

Thoughts anyone?

Jazz
(List 112, S/N 00030, 4 gig blue)

No, I'm not a u**x guy so I don't fiddle with the kernel or anything. I'm just using the dumb customer image files, thats it. Basically, all I want is music out of this box.

As far as the input-level on the amp goes, that's fine, but the problem is that the MP3 files are all different in volume and the empeg doesn't normalize. OK, I agree it's up to me to get them normalized in the first place, but hey, the whole problem wouldn't appear if the thing would have reacted normal to volume adjustments. And, my first sub was blown at the time the empeg could go into 'overdrive' so it isn't that critical anymore, but under worse conditions (not me beeing in the car, very load MP3 + the volume bug alltogether) it could still kill things - I hope not to, but who knows.

Cheers, Jo

We've explained why it happens, and made progress on beta 10, but we have serious problems replicating the problem, which means we can't do any more to fix it. We're happy the timer code is fixed in the kernel now, and we're happy the state machine behaves correctly to recognise the buttons. The only variable is interrupt latency, which isn't exactly easy to characterise.

The code in the mk2 front panel processor has been altered to send two button-up codes every time a button is released to try and improve robustness. The rotary control does send button presses, but as this sends one for left and one for right, there's no way you can get runaway - only (worst case) a missed "click" on the rotary dial - something which the Sony & Blaupunkt head units we have in the office suffer from too if you turn the controls too fast.

We've done all we can unless we have a foolproof way to replicate the bug. We don't see it anymore here, even under extreme circumstances. I've not seen the bug despite spending 8 hours on the road over the weekend (& using the volume control maybe 30 times in that period). It's not a common reported problem, and we're not just working on the empeg-car here - we have other things to do too.

Better bug reporting may help us: if the volume is going up, does pressing and releasing the volume up button stop it? Does pressing and releasing volume down help? Do any buttons work? Does the remote work in this circumstance? Anything special, eg track border, middle of track, etc.

Hugo

add a menu option ( . . ) for Volume limit, which brings up a screen with ( . . ) a setting for off (no limit) and a second setting which is the level the volume will not go above

I'm all for it. I asked for such a feature a long time ago. Back then, Hugo wasn't in favour of it because you should be able to adjust the gain of your amps in such a manner that it would never play overly loud with empeg at 0 db. Now Empeg herself sometimes decides to play way past 0db, such a limiter may have a chance again. I'd love to have it.
Any chance now, Hugo ?

"Valet Key" feature, which lowers the power output when Valet parking (or lending the car to friends etc).
Not just for parking or friends. I have one in my home set-up to protect anybody (including myself) from blowing out the speakers


Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

Hugo,

Better bug reporting may help us: if the volume is going up, does pressing and releasing the volume up button stop it? Does pressing and releasing volume down help? Do any buttons work? Does the remote work in this circumstance? Anything special, eg track border, middle of track, etc.

Everytime this has happened to me, pressing the left or right buttons on the front panel has cured the problem. When it gets very loud then I tend to pull the unit to ensure that I don't wreck my eardrums (or the speakers for that matter).

Since this seems to happen to me on a reasonably regular basis, perhaps there is a switch I can set on the empeg to log things? Perhaps a specific kernel from you guys which logs what you need to know - particularly if you've got an idea on what you are looking for.

I'm happy to try and test things out for you guys, but normally when it happens I'm in the car, driving so I don't have the time to start playing with the empeg to give you guys loads of debugging information. I'll try and replicate it here at home, but as you say, it doesn't happen a lot.

For me anyway, just slowing down the speed of the volume control would eliminate an enourmous amount of keypresses, which would make it less common (I imagine).

This is still a relatively important issue, to me anyway.

Cheers,

Paul.

Paul Haigh, 6GB, Blue
Reg: 4120 - Serial 00254

Hugo,

I believe the proper thing for you to do is to offer to ship jfranke's empeg unit at your cost back to your development offices, replicate the contents of the hard drive and send him a replacement asap. If jfranke's unit can replicate the problem so readily, I think it will be in everyone's best interests for you to get a hold of his unit so you can expedite the solution. That way, jfranke will get a unit where the problem is "difficult to replicate" and you have a unit where it happens 3 times a weekend and everyone is happy.

Calvin

Yes, I can stop the selfmovement by pressing any button, so they work. I did not try the remote and probably will get no chance, since until I got to the remote it already move either all the way up or down. I am normally changing volume just after the track started, but I would say it's not connected to where the track is playing. I will try to observe better in the future. Ah, there is one thing, it's only happening when I'm listening to Paul Oakenfold remixes. That might be since this is the only stuff I have on my empeg as of now (stupid joke isn't it ?) And yes, I could send you my unit - once the MKII is out and you send me one for replacement and you have a perfect test-unit. Another bad joke, isn't it ? Thanks for checking on things. WIll let you know any findings asap. Cheers, Jo

If you want to make a complaint then EMAIL me! This isn't empeg customer support, this is an unofficial BBS. Nonetheless I'll post some comments here because I daresay some people are interested.

As far as I'm concerned this sounds like a warranty issue, not a software bug - I've not heard of one other case where anyone can experience it anywhere near as often as you do. Either you're using the empeg very differently to 300+ other people, or you have a faulty player. If the latter, with the frequency of occurances reported it should be no problem for us to verify the fault and repair/replace/refund the player as appropriate.

By the way, the "emergency procedure" is simply to tap the "stuck" button once more.

Rob
rob@empeg.com

> Now Empeg herself sometimes decides to play way past 0db

Ummm, wasn't this fixed about 2 releases ago? It shouldn't be able to increase past 0dB unless you release the button and depress it again.

Rob

Better bug reporting may help us: if the volume is going up, does pressing and releasing the volume up button stop it? Does pressing and releasing volume down help? Do any buttons work? Does the remote work in this circumstance? Anything special, eg track border, middle of track, etc.

I addressed several of those questions earlier in this thread in what I thought was a reasonably detailed analysis of the bug as I have experienced it. Please take the time to read through it if you haven't already.

I regret that one test I will not be attempting is to press and release the "volume up" button when the volume is shooting upward to begin with. B)

We've done all we can unless we have a foolproof way to replicate the bug...It's not a common reported problem, and we're not just working on the empeg-car here - we have other things to do too.

Easy there, Hugo. I am a software developer who has a deep level of respect for what you guys have accomplished over this product lifecycle. And I am really, really appreciative of the fact that you take the time to dialogue with your customers over this issue.

But the wording of your response gives the impression that you don't recognize this to be a consumer safety issue. Subscribers on this board have been giving you bug reports on this problem, and there have been two good feature suggestions on this thread that could potentially limit harm. But I think it is very instructive to consider Jo Franke's question of what Sony would have to do if they released a car stereo that had this "feature." (Hint: It begins with the letter 'H' and ends with 'ardware Recall.') Fortunately, it only takes a software patch to either eliminate the bug or come up with a creative workaround, but it also requires some of your very scarce time and attention.

Thanks,
Corby
SN#320, 6-Gig Blue

> I regret that one test I will not be attempting is to press and release
> the "volume up" button when the volume is shooting upward to begin with

That's a shame, because that is exactly how you fix the run-away action. I've posted this information several times in the past! Whichever button has stuck, press and release THAT BUTTON again. This sends a new button-up code and cancels the autorepeat.

Although I haven't experienced this bug in months, whenever it happened in the past that action fixed it every time.

Rob

Dude, I love you guys so it really bothers me that I am spending time bitching on your BBS, but you just don't get it.

This is not a GUI problem or a complaint about gapless MP3 playback. Jo Franke's girlfriend could have been seriously hurt, or killed. Since this bug has apparently not happened to you guys, I don't think you understand how unsettling an experience it is when the volume starts unexpectedly flying up into painful levels. And even if it had, your reaction as engineers who have developed the unit for over a year is going to be considerably more reasoned than the reaction of a non-techie user who is joyriding in her boyfriend's car.

By the way, the "emergency procedure" is simply to tap the "stuck" button once more.

Really. The conclusion I drew from my previous analysis in this thread was that pressing "volume down" button would be equally effective if the "volume up" button sticks, and a bit more to the point (Of course, neither one helps if you encounter the remote/console collision that I described).

But hey, it's your emergency procedure. How about distributing it to each of the registered Mark I owners? The frequent posters on the Empeg BBS are not the people I am worried about. We are already prepared for the problem and can avoid putting ourselves in a position where our safety is jeopardized. The people I am worried about are the ones that haven't encountered the problem yet, because that first time is quite a surprise.

If you want to make a complaint then EMAIL me! This isn't empeg customer support, this is an unofficial BBS.

Be cool, Rob. We need to be getting this information out to as many owners as possible, and not consigning it to private e-mail. Please don't be defensive about this -- people like me who are bitching care a lot about your company and want to see you be very successful.

Corby
SN#320, 6-Gig Blue

We've done all we can unless we have a foolproof way to replicate the bug. We don't see it anymore here, even under extreme circumstances. I've not seen the bug despite spending 8 hours on the road over the weekend (& using the volume control maybe 30 times in that period). It's not a common reported problem, and we're not just working on the empeg-car here - we have other things to do too.

---

Just a little note - I've seen this problem 2-3 times in the last week, but it's been on the volume down every time... It should be noted that I'm still running beta 10 though, and not 10a...
-mark

...proud to have one of the first Mark I units

A good one. On the 4th of February 2000 9:57 I mailed 'bugs@empeg.com' about that - no reply. On the 4th of February 20th of March 2000 10:54 I mailed 'bugs@empeg.com' about that again - no reply. Should I have tried some more times :-) Just kidding. As you can see, I have tried. Thks, Jo

It shouldn't be able to increase past 0dB unless you release the button and depress it again.
I haven't experienced the volume bug yet, but it would seem that a hard limit would at least stop it from going up to +10dB.

I haven't had the volume bug yet, but it would seem that a limiter would easy their pain (sic). But I've another reason for such a limiter and most likely there are many more people out in the world that would benefit too:

Hugo's advise to adjust the Amps input gain such that at 0dB Empeg's output isn't 'loud' but not overly loud, is not always practical. In my set-up the Amps input is too sensitive for the Empeg's output. So, even with input sensitivity all the way down, Emma can oversteer the Amp: 0dB Empeg is way too loud for comfortable listening. Have a look at CHIPs visuals movie (GREAT job Chip: http://steve.nac.net/empeg) and you'll see that he too plays MP3s way below 0dB (if I remember correctly there are shots at -17dB or so too.) Can you imagine how loud Emma plays at a (stopped) 0dB?

A programmable limiter (max output xxdB) would be marvelous. Many high-end systems offer it. Why not Empeg??

Henno
# 00120 (6GB+18)

How about distributing it to each of the registered Mark I owners?

Errr.... he has. Here. Several times. So has Mike. Plus, it was stated in the readme for the release that made a serious attempt to address a problem that has not yet been clearly defined/spotted/caught/reproduced at empeg by building in safety checks. I take it that the readme was of course, read?

You can spout all you like on this board, but it has nothing to do with empeg Ltd. They have no obligation to even reply here; since they do reply frequently, and helpfully, somehow this has been interpreted that this board is the only place where support requests should be made (wrong) and that support and bug fixes are a right, not a priviledge (also wrong).

I can understand Rob's increasing frustration in replying on these boards - as if he hasn't got enough to do already.

And - forgive me here, but it's time for me to get the rag out - if you are stupid enough to set up your car sound installation so that if a 0 dB input to the amp could possibly endanger your life (or those of other drivers who use the vehicle) then you deserve what you will (inevitably) get. You will also get laughed out of court if you try to sue on that basis. Just because 0 dB is a volume setting you don't often use doesn't mean it won't happen.

If you are insufficiently concientious to instruct other users of your car and it's associated equipment in it's proper use, then you are yourself negligent.

Finally, if you are unable to set up your equipment properly in order to prevent damage to the speakers at full volume, then you have more money than sense.

After that diatribe, I am still asking myself (as I do every time I read one of these posts) "Are these people unable grab the handle and pull the unit out"?

Or does reading the words "Beta Software" or "...supplied AS IS..." or "...read and understood these conditions" paralyse the parts of the brain required to actuate these muscles?

I addressed several of those questions earlier in this thread in what I thought was a reasonably detailed analysis of the bug as I have experienced it. Please take the time to read through it if you haven't already.

Did you post this to the official bugs mail address? If you didn't, then there is no guarantee that a description in a thread on this BBS will even be read by empeg Ltd. Hugo is not obliged to sit and read every thread on this BBS on a daily basis, neither is Mike. The only official acceptance of a report is through the official email addresses, which are posted on this board, in the newsletters, in the upgrade software, the manual, and in the readmes supplied with each free upgrade. Oh, and on the offical website. And the developer site. Yeah, and the two current FAQs as well. Did I forget any?

But the wording of your response gives the impression that you don't recognize this to be a consumer safety issue.

Again, since this isn't the official mouthpiece of empeg Ltd., why should he? Secondly, why should he anyway? The generation of sound pressure is done by loudspeakers and amplifiers, not by the empeg unit. The sound levels produced by your sound equipment are your responsibility and yours alone - a point that seems to be escaping a significant number of people's attention here.

I think it is very instructive to consider Jo Franke's question of what Sony would have to do if they released a car stereo that had this "feature." (Hint: It begins with the letter 'H' and ends with 'ardware Recall.')

Ahhhh - hang on then - so by this reasoning, any head unit capable of reaching a 0 dB output level should be subject to a manufacturer's recall? Damn, that's gonna piss off a lot of manufacturers around the world

So I know what's coming next - the statement "without volition". The answer is the following -

"BETA Software".

Ooops. Or didn't you read that bit of the licence conditions?

The fact is, I belive there is nothing more we can do to address the problem in software; the fault either lies in timing (unlikely, we've gone though this with a fine toothcomb) or in the button state machine (unlikely, as it's been checked many times). If we could reproduce it we could make logs of the sequences and try and find *where* it was getting upset, but we can't, and we don't have the time to spend a few days looking at a problem which just never seems to happen to us.

I suspect that jfranke's player simply has a faulty switch (dirty contacts, maybe) which is causing a lot of switch bounce or similar and upsetting the PIC. He's not reported the problem happening on any other buttons, and it's *exactly* as probable that it would happen on (say) play/pause or menu if it was a software problem.

When Rob's back in (he's off ill at the moment) we'll get jfranke's player back in and replace the display board.

Hugo

OK, well sorry about that. bugs@empeg.com goes to the developers, not customer support - they already know about the volume bug, and probably filed the email away. They SHOULD have replied, but what do developers know about customer service huh?

You need to email support@empeg.com (or rob@empeg.com) and I'll get on the case. I'm off sick at the moment so things are taking longer to process than usual, but we'll get there.

Rob