I would think if they could do it on a Zaurus, it should be easy on an Empeg. Comments from the gallery?

http://linuxandmain.com/news/zaurogg.html

This is not free. :-( Its harder than it looks on the surface.

already there:) check out the release notes from 12F:

In reply to:

---

Ogg Vorbis support has been implemented. This is an open source audio
format similar to MP3. Note: Due to possible patent issue with the
psycho accoustic engine, we have modified the decoder to play every
third note one semitone high. When these issues are resolved we hope to
return to the regular scale, although this actually improves Britney tracks.

---

-mark

I guess I don't understand how they can do this. Ogg is based on GPL right? If you derive any software from something based on GPL, your new software has to be GPL'ed right? (Unless you're Apple, of course). So if he derived any of his work from the GPL Ogg libraries, his embeded stuff should be GPL'ed and therefore free, right?

Greg

They just provide the gpled section of the code along with the compiled program I suppose. I looked at some of the code, and its way over my head. It almost requires a math major to figure this stuff out, and I had trouble getting through calc 2.

Sean

No. If I write something (from scratch) and release it under the GPL, I'm free to create other works derived from that and release those under something other than the GPL.

Actually libogg and libvorbis moved over to a BSD license some time ago. Programs like ogg123 and oggenc are still GPL'd, but the reference implementation of the core codec is BSD licensed. Even before the change, they were licensed under the LGPL, which wouldn't have prevented Sonicblue from using the libs. The reason we don't have Ogg Vorbis support yet is a technical one.

The arm CPUs in the Empegs lack a floating point unit, and Vorbis makes heavy use of floating point numbers. So the free reference libs can't get anywhere close to realtime on these CPUs. However, xiph.org has a second set of libraries that are integerized and run at about the same speed as the mp3 codec. Those must be licensed from xiph.org though. So you guys just need to let Sonicblue know that you want Ogg Vorbis in all their future products, and maybe they'll license it and toss us Ogg Vorbis support in the Empeg as a gift

Jon

All my licensing questions were really regarding the integer math ogg library. I wasn't sure how he could charge a license for this new library when the normal float was based on GPL ... eh... money grubbers.

g

(Warning: I know all the xiph.org folks really well, and I'm a sympathizer. I know you weren't really going after them, but I want to explain things anyway. Sorry for being defensive.)

I understand the sentiments, but the reality is quite different. The xiph.org guys have been working on Vorbis full-time for over a year now with almost no money coming in. This isn't an attempt to get super-rich, it's an attempt to be able to continue full-time development without starving to death. The market has a need for an integerized decoder, and so they invested the time in writing one with the intentions of licensing it so they could buy food and such . They're still working their butts off so you can have the best patent free, royalty free audio format around.

Jon

Any idea how much the library costs? Or is it a per case licensing thing?

- Trevor

It's definitely done on a case-by-case basis. You can email the CEO of xiph.org, Emmet Plant, at emmett@xiph.org to inquire about licensing.

Jon

Thanks. I'll email him later

How many people would actually use Ogg Vorbis files on their empeg? No point spending money on it if hardly anybody would use it...

Also would the empeg team add it in to the software if it was available?

- Trevor

I heard it was into five figures, although I haven't had any official contact with them. I guess it may be different for a smaller company or an individual.

Rob

Vorbis is definitely catching on in popularity, but certainly right now it's a small amount of people that are using it. I think in the next year or two that may change, at least in certain circles. Hardware support is definitely one thing that hampers Vorbis's adoption though, so it's a bit of a chicken and egg problem. Would you try it if your empeg played Ogg Vorbis files, given that winamp, xmms, media player, etc. have plugins?

As far as the empeg guys go, I can't speak for them. But from my communications with them, it sounds like they want vorbis support.

Jon

I want to beef up the FAQ entry on this subject. As I understand it, the reason Voribis is not available for the empeg car is:

- It needs to be an integer-only (not floating point) implementation, compiled for the ARM processor. Until recently, such an animal did not exist.

- Those who recently wrote the ARM integer implementation do not give it away for free, and the licensing fees are not cheap.

Would that be an accurate set of statements for the FAQ?

I guess there should be more people using it once they release 1.0. It's still got the beta test stigma attached to it and not many people as you quite rightly say want to commit to using it yet without wider support.

I've email the CEO and will see how it goes. Hopefully it's not going to be a 5 figure sum! If it is going to have any realistic chance of appearing on the empeg then it's going to have to be a couple of hundred at the most. Otherwise somebody will have to sit down and rewrite the decoder themselves.

Who wants to try and create an ATRAC decoder without Sony sueing them to death? Does anybody use ATRAC files actually? I found an ATRAC plugin for winamp a few years back but never found anything that used it apart from some sample files.

- Trevor

I've got some good news about this actually!

I've emailed Emmett (CEO of xiph.org) and he is willing to license the integer decoder for Ogg Vorbis free of charge! The license would only cover the the empeg though so Rio Receiver and HSX-109 people would be out of luck unfortunately

I'll give more details in a bit...

- Trevor

Someone link that post where one of the empeg guys (don't remember who it was... Was it Roger?) where he said that if an integer-ARM vorbis decoder became available that it would end up being implemented on the player within 24 hours...

Splendid! Trevor, you da man.

Now who's going to convince someone to license a good voice recognition for free?

Someone link that post where one of the empeg guys (don't remember who it was... Was it Roger?) where he said that if an integer-ARM vorbis decoder became available that it would end up being implemented on the player within 24 hours...

Tick..
tick..
tick..
tick..
tick..

Clock only starts when they get the files, I would think.

This is the reply from Emmett I got. I had to ask his permission to repost it here which is the reason for the delay.

Hey, Trevor!

Tremor (the fixed-point decoder) is available for license, but I absolutely refuse to accept any money from anyone to get it implemented on the Empeg. Hugo showed me his demo box at LinuxWorld Expo about three years ago, and I've always thought it was groovy.

I think the Empeg is cool, and it has a great community. I'd be willing to license Tremor to SonicBlue for free, as long as it was only implemented for the Empeg.

Emmett

Also apparently he's never quoted a five figure price for the decoder Anybody at Empeg want to get this going? Rob?

- Trevor

OK, found it. By the way, it was Peter:

http://empeg.comms.net/php/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=wishlist&Number=70082

" I think it's fair to say that if an integer-only or ARM version of the Ogg Vorbis codec were released, there would be an internal development version incorporating it within 24 hours."

I think the Empeg is cool, and it has a great community.

Wow. Trevor, is there some way we could collectively buy this gent a pint? Dinner?

They've got a paypal account for donations if you want to do it that way: donate@xiph.org

I've already given them a bit just because it's a cool project

- Trevor

24 hours

Ho boy. Wonder whether I'm going to regret saying that...

Peter

PS. Welcome to our newest member, Emmett!

Hmm... Internal development version...

This means you lucky lot that are beta testers get to play with it before the rest of us! Not fair!

- Trevor

/me wonders how long before he starts re-encoding all his stuff in .ogg format...

You're too kind! Thanks to Trevor for E-mailing me (and slothy for keeping on my ass about this). I've been reading this list for the past few days, and I've enjoyed the interesting posts. I decided a couple days ago to give the Empeg a free license for Tremor, but I wanted to see if anyone would e-mail me about it first.

As far as buying me a pint, I appreciate the offer, but I'd rather you purchase a pint for my developers... Go to the pub, ask how much a pint of Guinness is, come back home and paypal that amount to donate@xiph.org.

From a business point of view, there's no way we're going to be able to make money on the Empeg. It's not available, no one's going to give us money for the decoder. On the other hand, there are about 4,000 people out there who are using them, and if we can give a little support to a big group of friendly people who like music and want to get more out of their hardware, why not make it available?

You guys rock. I hope we can get the decoder working for you ASAP. Thanks for the opportunity!

<applause>