After almost 6 months I'm going to finally be able to install my Rio Car! There's just one problem. I still don't have an AMP.

I've been looking at lots of different options, reading threads on this board, and I've nailed it down to 1 of 3 possible options. I'm hoping you can help me choose the best one.

My guides have been the following:
1. I don't want the amp to be visible. (if possible)
2. I want it to sound very good/excellent
3. I'm not big into base, so an amp that's all about changing your heart rythm isn't for me.
4. Value (I started looking for less than $200 but eventually doubled that)

The first is a blaupunkt PA-4100 . It's the best price(~$300), and uses less power than the others. It's also smaller. Supposedly it's good, but it's a class 'T' which I've heard is not as good as AB. (though blau. claims it IS as good)

Next is the nakamichi PA-2004 It's my least favorite of the 3 (it's pretty large) but a high end car audio specialist in town reccomended it. I can pick one up for $350.

Last is the massive audio rs25.4 it's supposed to be a reference level unit. (I understand reference is supposed to mean top notch.. am I correct?) This is my most likely choice in terms of quality (it's AB, and the case is shinny;) ) but at $400 it's NOT pocket-book friendly.

That's it. I'd VERY much like advice from 'those who know'. Even the peanut gallery is welcome to chime in.

I used to sell car audio at the Good Guys, and all i know is, DON'T GET A SHITTY AMP. I havn't heard too much about Blaupunkt other than complaints from customers. I like anything Nakamichi, great quality stuff, so out of your 3 options, that sounds like the one i'd go for.

What i recommend though, is the JL Audio 300/4 . This is an awesome amp, very high quality, good sound, and tons of tweaking options. I've seen it for around 350 to 400. If you want an amp that'll last and sound great, the JL is the one to go with (IMHO).

2. I want it to sound very good/excellent

Then you need to start at the speakers and work backwards, as any audiophile will tell you. Start by getting the best speakers you can, then get an amp that will properly drive them at high quality.

3. I'm not big into base, so an amp that's all about changing your heart rythm isn't for me.

Again, this is the speakers that control this, and the amp merely drives the speakers.

But the thing to remember is that low bass isn't (on a properly tuned system) about making the car thump. It's about making the low parts of the music audible above road noise without making it thump. All kinds of music can benefit from a subwoofer, even quiet music and classical music. A subwoofer will make the biggest impact on how good your system sounds.

Start at the speakers......

I tried that once. It cost me $250 in blown speakers.

Also, I don't believe in buying things twice. Since I'm completely redoing my audio system, I'm working my way from the head unit down. Purchasing an inexpensive amp, and then purchasing a good one a few months later (+ the hassle of storing/selling the now 'old' amp) seems silly. I've seen what mediocre amps can do to speakers. I'm not going that route again.

I can't quite accept the "it's all about the speakers" argument.
Analogy: you somehow put Pirelli Asimmetrico tires on a Dodge Neon. Sure, the car will handle a LITTLE better, but not much. The tires potential is essentially wasted on that car.

Another: "garbage in garbage out." If your amp produces distortion so will your speakers. If the amp produces enough distortion it ends up costing you a new set of speakers.

Rather than saying the speakers are always the first, best upgrade, perhaps it would be better to say, "find the weakest link in the chain, upgrade that."

If you start with the head unit you will most likely blow the speakers, even if you don't want them any more. Like Tony says, start at the speakers. If you want quality, you'l need components which are capable of high(ish) levels and are able to reproduce moderate levels at the quality you require. Normally this means setting levels so that you won't be able to turn the volume up far enough to bust things.
Speakers -> amp -> head unit.

You are entitled to disagree with me, of course. But I think most audiophiles would back up my position.

Sorry to hear about the $250.00 blown speakers, but I can't imagine how that could happen unless the amp was a complete piece of junk, it was turned up too loud, or didn't use a proper crossover point.

Another: "garbage in garbage out." If your amp produces distortion so will your speakers. If the amp produces enough distortion it ends up costing you a new set of speakers.

Agreed.

Rather than saying the speakers are always the first, best upgrade, perhaps it would be better to say, "find the weakest link in the chain, upgrade that."

Agreed. It's just that in most of the factory systems I've seen, that weak link is the speakers and amplification as a set, with the speakers being the thing that's most in need of replacement.

Okay, in most factory systems there isn't even an amp at all, so you do have to upgrade that part anyway I guess.

And yes, a good amp is important. I'm just saying that as long as the amp is adequate, you're going to hear the most improvement with better speakers.

These are the amps i've been using with a few empeg decks i've installed in mine and my friends cars.

I did a quick search on ebay, they are always on ebay. This is just to give you guys an idea.

A/D/S 4 channel
Going rate on ebay is around $50 for a brand new one

A/D/S 6 channel
Going rate on ebay is around $150 for a brand new one

Hope this might help you out a bit, i've had great luck with all of my a/d/s products.

Holy crap!! The auction for the ADS 4 channel is being done by an auctioneer here in town. Would you believe I even know the owner of this particular place? I just found out he has a ton of audio equipement he's selling this Saturday at his monthly in house auction.

He's a really good guy. We bid against each other all the time @ auctions here. (Need to make enough money to get home to Olympus Mons)

Would you believe he was the one selling the M3 I was going to buy a couple months back? I didn't get it because the drug dealer it had been seized from copped a plea that included getting his car back..

Friggin' small world.

Thanks for the input Tony. I'm sure as soon as I get the amp in I'll be looking for decent fronts. (5.5-6") Any recommendations in that area?

Also, I don't know if the factory amp was bad. When I got my new head unit I threw it out, JIC. (thankfully mazda was kind enough to include 'unplug and play' where their booster amp was/is concerned

Don't just take other people's recommendations for speakers. Go to stereo shop and A/B all the different speakers until you find a pair that you like. The speakers are the most important part of the system. I can't stress it enough that you must go listen and compare the speakers instead of justing buying what others like. I personally listened to a ton of speakers and ended up getting Diamond Audio Hex 600s components for the front and Diamond Audio M361 coaxials in the rear. When I heard these speakers (mainly the HEX components) I was instantly sold as they are amazing (although not cheap).

Rob

P.S. For an amplifier you don't need massive power. My AMP is 50W x 4 (Diamond Audio D7054) and I drive the front and rear speakers from 2 channels and bridge the remaining 2 channels to give 100W to the sub. Ask Tony, he has heard my system. I can play it so loud that my ears hurt way before the speakers will blow.

Go to stereo shop and A/B all the different speakers until you find a pair that you like.

Yes... but with one important caveat: Don't expect the speakers to sound the same in your car as they do in the stereo shop.

Your car is a completely different environment, with maybe 10% of the "room" volume of the stereo shop, a different amplifier setup, totally different acoustics dictated by all the angled surfaces (windshield, headliner, etc.), speaker placement, reflective surfaces, and dozens of other variables.

You can make speaker choices with A/B comparisons in the shop -- determine that one speaker is brighter than another, or this subwoofer has tighter bass than that one. But just because a certain speaker sounds really warm and mellow in the 250--1000 Hz range in the shop doesn't mean it will sound that way in your car.

tanstaafl.

Elvis:

When you say that you don't want the amps to be visible, do you mean from anywhere, or just from the outside of the car? If you want a truly stealth install, meaning one that cannot even be seen from the trunk, you want to make sure that the amps you choose don't run too hot, as they will probably be somewhere with less that perfect ventilation.

As for amps, all you really need to do is find an amp that puts out the power your speakers require. You mentioned that "an amp that is all about changing your heart rhythm isn't for you". There's not really any such thing - I mean, class AB amps are best for your soundstage and class D amps are meant to drive subs, but beyond that, it's not like a particular amp is designed to have more "beat" than another.

All solid state amps will sound basically the same. There is no need to worry about high THD on any particular amp, as even most crappy amps have THD so low as to be inaudible.

Ok, so what you need to do is match your amp to your speakers. The problem with that is the fact that you can't really trust the RMS ratings of an amp. Very good companies tend to underrate their amps, while crappy companies tend to vastly overrate theirs. Your best bet is to check out the car audio forums for opinions on any amps you might have your sights set on. I could recommend an amp for you if you knew how much power you will be needing.

It was stated that you should audition speakers before buying. This is true, but unfortunately if you limit your options to what your local retailers carry you will be missing out on many products that may be vastly superior to what your local shops carry. For instance, Crystal Mobilesound makes a set of incredible components that for $119 will blow away sets costing three times the price. Problem is, good luck finding them at a local shop. Online is pretty much your only option.

One thing to keep in mind with your speakers is that the overwhelming majority of audiophiles recommend putting all your money into the front stage and eliminating the rears altogether. I must say that I agree with this. Ditch the rears, you'll never miss them.

Do you plan on adding a sub? You don't have to be a basshead to need a sub - the size of the in car speakers is just not enough to reproduce the lows in your music.

audiophiles recommend putting all your money into the front stage and eliminating the rears altogether.

I am not totally in agreement with you here.

If you had said "...put the great majority of your money into the front stage and greatly reduce the presence of the rears" then we would be in agreement. But a little bit of rear fill is nice for ambience -- it adds a warmth and fullness to the sound that is lacking if 100% of the sound comes from in front of you. Just don't put so much emphasis on the rear that it pulls the apparent location of the sound stage back.

I am totally in agreement with you about the subwoofer, though. If I were enhancing an existing factory speaker, adding a sub would be the very first thing I did. Just keep in mind that the sound will be improved so much by the addition of a subwoofer that it will be like the dope pusher giving away the first sample for free -- you will be "hooked" on the sound and will quickly recognize the shortcomings of the rest of the system. By the time you're done there won't be an original piece left in the car!

tanstaafl.

A trick with rear speakers is to run them in series (8 ohms) and then run them on the bridged amp channel (which causes them to play mono). This will create a sense of a center channel speaker, while behind you, is better than nothing. It creates more of a "fill" noise than true stereo speakers.

And heck, if you are running short on speaker wire you might have to do it anyway.

As far as amps, I've got 2 old kidney style Rockford Fosgates. A punch 4040 and a punch 60ix. Great amps and you can find them cheap on ebay... if you can find them.

In reply to:

---

If you had said "...put the great majority of your money into the front stage and greatly reduce the presence of the rears" then we would be in agreement. But a little bit of rear fill is nice for ambiance -- it adds a warmth and fullness to the sound that is lacking if 100% of the sound comes from in front of you.

---

It's just the current popular theory. The idea of rear fill in a quality oriented system was always to create a sense of reflected sound, as the goal is to recreate the sound of a live performance coming from in front and slightly above you. The concept is for the rear speakers to provide a sense of space, as might be heard in a largish hall with a slight sound reflection off of the back wall. Many now say that the sound from the front speakers reflecting off of the rear windshield pretty much accomplishes the same thing.

IMO, I just think that they're unnecessary. I have tried with and without and feel the sound is more clear and the right and left channels much more defined with just the fronts. Plus, if you have a large-ish sub the movement of the air from the sub tends to push the cones of speakers mounted in the rear deck, resulting in fairly nasty distortion.

Another nice plus is if you have an accurate sub (such as a higher-quality sub in a sealed enclosure as opposed to some bass monster in a bandpass box) the low frequencies will port through the factory locations in the back deck, thus not losing as much definition or "tightness". Of course, this point is moot in a hatchback.

One of the big problems with using rear fill with the Empeg is that most people like to power their rear fill with the head unit's amplification. The Empeg, of course, has no amplification. I just feel that the purchase of an additional amp or the extra expense involved with a 4-channel amp versus a 2-channel amp is just not justified considering the very minor effect.

Just my $.02.

Sorry to jump on this a little late, but I found important to defend the Blaupunkt PA amplifier line.
My actual system consists on a PA4100 for the front/rear mid/highs (Focal Polyglass 165Vs) and a PA275 for my 10 inch sub (Blau. ODw1000).
Dismiss everything you have heard or read about the class "T" amps from Blau. They are fantastic. They look great and are really small (this was an important goal, as I wanted my Peugeot 307 install to be the least intrusive possible).
Maybe I am not a total audiophile but have some experience with such stuff, some friends have McIntosh amps on their cars. I really think the PA line is comparable in sound quality to some very expensive ones. Maybe I'm not a true audiophile, but I think I have some experience with high quality systems and I believe that the 2001 PA line is very reliable and sounds really excellent.