All it adds over the 4000 series is a modem and a $250 activation charge.... or so it seems.

http://www.sonicblue.com/company/press.asp?ID=555

dose that mean all 4000's are toast, also dose anyone have the old 4000 prices? it just seems sonicblue is making the product more normal house friendly with the modem

Still available from Amazon for $999 (80GB).

so its technically the same price, consume jsut look at it as super expensive becuase theres less out the door price, i think ill get the $450 model and add harddrives to it.

So how is this a price change ?

There is no price change. Some people will probably buy it because it is $250 less "out the door." I don't get how these types of people think.

I guess I was expecting them to copy the tivo model with the monthly fee.

They are going to, they just haven't set up the monthly fee thing yet.

I'm disappointed that the price is still too high for me. I thought they'd knock the price down in addition to subtracting the activation fee.

So are you saying they are going to charge 700 (including the "activation fee" ) plus a monthly fee. Or something completely different ?

Nope. $450 + $250 = $700 if you buy a lifetime sub. $450 + whatever the monthly fee if you go monthly. So if the monthly fee is $10, you lose out after use your ReplayTV for about two years. The lifetime sub would obviously be preferable unless you think you'll only use it for a year or so.

The thing that scares me away from the lifetime subscriptions (at least tivo's anyway) is that it's the lifetime of the player so if it gets fried in 6 months I get ripped off. I don't know if sonic blue would be different or not.

I'm pretty sure they replace it if it's fried.

Actually, what scares me worse is the user agreement which basically states that you can't hack your 4500, and if they catch you hacking it, they can terminate your agreement. As per this Slashdot story. The hacker-friendliness is the one thing that the 4000 series had, until now.

The thing that scares me away from the lifetime subscriptions (at least tivo's anyway) is that it's the lifetime of the player so if it gets fried in 6 months I get ripped off.

My main DirecTiVo has a lifetime sub which my second DirecTiVo inherits as long as my main TiVo works. As you can imagine, I have the same concerns as you. I have to keep my main TiVo working for me to properly benefit. Since replacing the original hard drive, the internal temp has jumped to 55ºC from about 47ºC. This heat scares me. I have put the original drive away for safe keeping, so I am covered if the hard drive dies. However, if the motherboard goes, I'm f*cked. I am seriously considering installing some active and passive cooling into my main unit... and my secondary for that matter. If I do, I will certainly post some pics.

PS- My TiVo has been going for just over a year now.

Surely if the hardware malfunctions, a call to their support will allow you to transfer the lifetime subscription to a new serial number? Even if the hardware malfunctions from environmental conditions or even your carelessness? I mean, what if you had a flood and the unit was water-damaged? What if you spilled beer on it? What if you sledgehammered it in a rage because you didn't like the adware on it? They've got to have a license transfer procedure in place for situations like that.

If you damage the unit within 90 days and the warranty sticker is still intact , you can transfer the sub. Unfortunately, if you spill beer on it they may be able to smell the hoppy goodness and deny your claim. Yeah, it's unfair.

What?? If your unit craps out after 3 months of owning it, and you have a lifetime subscription, and haven't tinkered with it at all, you can't get a new one without paying for a new subscription service?? WTF??

yes thats how tivo does it thats why I won't get a lifetime from them (my previous post must have been confusing). does anyone know what the policy will be from sonicblue for the replay.

Yes that is insane what is it with companies trying to prevent people from doing whatever they want with their own stuff. How could hacking the replay 4500 cost sonicblue anything if you get the lifetime they wouldn't get anymore money from you anyway.

Yup, which is why I'm leaning towards a series 2 TiVo right now. I love the show-sharing and all, but my fear is that I'll just be paying for lawyer costs for SonicBlue with my big fat investment, and they'll lose in the end and pull the feature when they're in a legal corner. I guess I'm in the Empeg's target audience, but slightly outside replay's.

Of course if it were maybe $250 plus $250 activation, I might consider it.

Sounds to me like the no-hacking rule is ass-covering.

1. If you hack the box and it dies, no warranty etc - just like Tivo and most other consumer electronics out there today.

2. If you hack the box to upload/download shows to/from a Tivo or whatever other boxes are out there or the internet or from whereever your hacked/promiscuous little Replay box hangs out - and you get sued by the MPAA, then Replay will disown you - hopefully to try and keep the (MPAA) lawyers off their backs (well no more on their backs than they are now :-P )

The only problem I have with the whole thing is if I buy a "lifetime" subscription I think I should be able to use it with a different unit if one dies or I upgrade.

I wouldn't expect them to warranty a unit that has been cracked open or screwed with in any way i'm not talking about the warranty I am talking about the subscription to the service. I probably wouldn't use any of the hacks I don't really care about saving shows recorded off tv and my tiny 20 hour tivo has enough space so I can't imagine wanting to add another hdd.

The fear I would have is I would get the lifetime subscription the unit would die in a year then I would be stuck paying too much to get it repaired or just be out the money for the service.

They won't keep the MPAA laywers away they would just make up something else to sue them over.

I don't disagree with you on this point.
Tivo has/had a similar issue with their definition of lifetime subscription.

In the early days of Tivo you could transfer the sub to a newer box if you ever upgraded.
That agreement is still in place for older Tivos bought AND lifetime sub'ed before Jan 2000 or similar date [and its a once only transfer, subsequent transfers don't count towards keeping the lifetime sub].

For all users since then, the sub is the lesser of:

1. The lifetime of the current box (outside warranty perod).
2. The length of time the current owner owns the box.

That means with a Tivo if I lifetime a Tivo I bought, then I **choose** to upgrade it later on to a bigger/newer box, that I cannot move the lifetime sub.
This sub stays with the original box, BUT only as long as I own it.

If I sell, give away or whatever my older box with the lifetime sub, the new owner has to pony up for a seperate sub - either lifetime or monthly.

If the box dies outside of the warranty period, forcing me to buy a new Tivo - well its like I bought/upgraded to a new Tivo.

Replay is pretty much the same.

In any case any transferrable lifetime sub will only be transferrable within the same model as you currently own, e.g. Replay 4000 -> (newer) Replay 4000, not Replay XXXX -> Replay YYYY (where XXXX is a different model from YYYY).

Basically, with these lifetime subs [and insurance in general], you pays (or not pays) your money and you takes your chances.

If you don't feel like gambling on your new box staying alive for 2 years, go monthly, if you still have the original box after 2 years, you will probably want to upgrade it to a newer model anyway (if there is one), hence the lifetime sub would be useless.
If Replay gets sued out of business within 2 years by the MPAA - then your lifetime sub is wasted, go monthly.

Really, if after 2+ years of monthly subs, you still have the same Replay TV and the Replay TV is still a valid SonicBlue product and they are still honouring their subs for lifetime owners, then you could feel ripped off maybe.
If none of this comes to pass, then you're better off (slightly) than a lifetime sub owner.

With TiVo, the lifetime sub stays with the box. If you sell it on ebay, the auction winner will get the lifetime sub for example. Check ebay, boxen with lifetime sub sell for much more.

From the FAQ on tivo.com:

A product lifetime subscription to the TiVo service covers the life of the recorder or receiver you buy - not the life of the subscriber. The Product lifetime subscription accompanies the product in case of ownership transfer. The subscription remains in effect even if you upgrade your recorder, for example, to increase storage capacity (please contact an authorized dealer or the manufacturer) or if the recorder needs to be repaired or replaced due to a malfunction (see manufacturer warranty details). Because a Product lifetime subscription is linked to a particular recorder, it cannot be transferred to any other recorder (unless the recorder is replaced due to a malfunction covered by the manufacturer's warranty). Each recorder purchased requires its own service subscription and activation.
Of course, hardware products don't last forever and their lifespan will vary. TiVo makes no representations or warranties as to the expected lifetime of the product aside from the manufacturer's warranty.

Ok, I recall aometime ago Tivolutionary (aka Richard Bullwinkle), formerly a Tivo employee, mentioned that lifetime subs don't transfer to new owners.

Must have changed/clarified this since then.

In any case, once the lifetimed box dies, the sub is no more....

The only way my box will die is if it gets hit by lightning or the board fries. By removing the original drive in working order, I can keep the box alive as long as the solid state electronics work. Removing the original drive for safe keeping is something I think eveyone with a Tivo should do.

If your drive dies and you don't have a backup, you can put a blank image of someone else's tivo of the same make and model on a new hard drive. However, there is a serial burned into the Tivo motherboard as well as one on the hard drive. For now, tivo seems to ignore the mis-match when it phones home. But, who knows how long that will last?

Bottom line... replace that drive before it's too late.

Well, as evidence that they're trying to cut down on "hacking" the box, I submit an excerpt from a comment on the ReplayTV section of AVS Forum:

"I received a 4504 Monday because I waited too long to order the 4040 and they ran out of stock (wasn't available on Amazon for weeks either). Neither ReplayPC or SwapDV works on the 4504-- so folks should be aware that when SB does the firmware upgrade making the 4000 series equivalent to the 4500 series, the usual apps for transfer will not work until the great gods of video do necessary patches to make them run again. Translated, I would have everything across to your PC that you want to have there as your unit could get pretty congested for a bit depending on how difficult the work around is. Selfishly, I am glad we will all be in the same boat as was bummed that I didn't order sooner and get a 4040. "

So it looks like this isn't just a token "cover your ass" move, they're really trying to stop people from hacking the boxen.

Tivo's looking better every day.

The point with $450+$250 is that the $250 goes *direct* to SONICblue. When a unit is sold through retail, the retailer gets their cut on the $450 and not the $250 activation fee - just like Tivo.

This means that the unit can (a) be sold cheaper and (b) sold effectively through retail.

As for anti-hacking features, I think the slashdot thread also pointed out that TiVo have the same (almost word-for-word) anti-hacking clause in their contract too.

Hugo

Yeah it may be cheaper at the store but it still costs me the same in the end.

Why would someone that didn't buy one direct because of the price buy one now unless they overlook the fact that they have to pay another 250 when they get home.

And I would think anyone that would buy one of these wouldn't just have been waiting to get it in a store.

I would suspect that retailers will discount them, that's the usual way of the world... getting the boxes in retailers allows people who wouldn't ever have come across them otherwise have a play - it does sell more units.

Hugo